Speaker 0 00:00:00 And today we have in studio with us, Alex, back to help with the sound board. Thank you. Welcome to the clear impact podcast brought to you by P G T I university. Thanks for joining us today. My name is Sherry Connor and I am your host.
Speaker 2 00:00:20 We are required to meet with the engineers in Miami. Some people meet with them, you know, over the phone or, or via teams or something like that. We like to go down to Miami and talk to them in person mm-hmm <affirmative>. We have to meet with them and we collectively decide on a test plan. And then we say, oh, we're gonna test five units or six units. And here's where we're gonna hit the, the missile on the units. And these are professional engineers that we're working with in Miami. Okay.
Speaker 0 00:00:46 Testing, testing, testing testing is a major part of making sure our products meet the appropriate building codes. We ask Charlie McCaffery to join Lynn Miller in today's episode of windows and doors, 2 0 1, Charlie oversees our very own test lab and how our windows indoors are put to the test every day. Literally, we also discuss the various levels of testing and why this process is important to our success and to yours. Good morning, we are here on the clear impact podcast and we are in the series windows doors, 2 0 1. And today we're gonna be talking about testing. So we've talked about it a lot in our previous episodes. And we learned about how the testing methods came to be in the innovations podcast that we did with rod Hirschberger. And what we wanna discuss today is more detailed around our current testing methods. And today we have in studio with us, Alex, back to help with the soundboard. Thank you. We have Lynn Miller returning. Welcome back, Lynn.
Speaker 2 00:01:41 Thank you. It's good to be back.
Speaker 0 00:01:43 Good to have you and also joining us today is Charlie McCaffrey who oversees the testing lab here at P D T. I welcome Charlie.
Speaker 3 00:01:50 Thank you for having me
Speaker 0 00:01:52 Glad you're here. So when people hear that we have a test lab and that you basically destroy things all day, they all want to go and watch or even help basically. Charlie, I think you have one of the most coveted jobs in our whole company. I think there is a little bit more to your work than just shooting two by fours, out of air cannons at windows and doors though. So can you tell us a little bit about what happens in the test lab?
Speaker 3 00:02:13 Yes. So on new products we have to build and glaze all the test units. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so basically you're spending a lot of time, you know, building stuff. And then when you just break it in like two minutes, you see all your hard work, go down the tubes
Speaker 0 00:02:26 <laugh> oh, no.
Speaker 3 00:02:27 <laugh> but also in the lab, you know, once we build our specimens, uh, we have to do air filtration, we gotta do water resistant testing. Then the exciting part is the loads. In my opinion, when you get to see a door, you know, bending mm-hmm <affirmative> from the structural loads. It's pretty interesting. But like you said, a lot of people like seeing the two by four S to us, like once you've seen, you know, one you've seen 'em all mm-hmm <affirmative> and then so after we do our structural load testing, then of course, then we do the two by four shoot and then we have to do our cycling. Mm. And the unit cycles, 4,500 cycles in the positive and 4,500 cycles in the negative. Okay. So that's usually most of a day just cycling.
Speaker 0 00:03:05 So from start to finish, how long does it take if you're testing a new window or maybe an existing window with a new component, what is that process from? Start to finish for you? Like hours wise?
Speaker 3 00:03:16 It depends on the product. If it's brand new product, of course we have to work the kinks out of it. So that can take an hour, it could take four hours. Okay. So it just depends if it's an existing product, usually if we're doing a water test, we do E 3 31 and 5 47, which is straight 15 minute. And we do a cyclic, which is four sets of five minute cycles. Okay. And then as far as like the, uh, structural part goes, it depends on the size of the unit. If it's small in the unit, we could flip 'em real quick. If it's a big sliding glass door, it could take us to flip it probably 15 minutes. Okay. When we do our doors, we do 'em on big rolling chambers. So mm-hmm <affirmative> we could get, 'em done a little quicker,
Speaker 0 00:03:55 Right? So you actually have a structure because I've been over there a couple times now, which is really fun. I love getting to come over and watch you actually have a wall, like the frame of a wall, and you actually install the product as though it were going into someone's house. And so it's all fastened and, you know, it's done exactly the same way that it would be done in someone's home. And then you begin all of your testing. Yes. Which for some reason that didn't register with me until I saw it. So you're using the anchors and everything that we prescribe on the NOA.
Speaker 3 00:04:25 Yes. The minimum Anchorage.
Speaker 0 00:04:27 Right. Got it. Is there anything else that you wanna tell us about that?
Speaker 3 00:04:30 Not really. Okay.
Speaker 0 00:04:31 <laugh> <laugh>
Speaker 3 00:04:32 Okay. I, we get all our Anchorage from Lynn. He does all the calcs on it, so. Okay.
Speaker 0 00:04:36 All right.
Speaker 2 00:04:37 I wanted to add to it too. Uh, some of the testing that Charlie was referring to, we did talk about some of that in a previous episode, a little bit about design pressure mm-hmm <affirmative> and about water testing, kind of on a higher level. And, um, like Charlie mentioned, we have two different standards that we do our water testing too. And then we have, uh, air infiltration testing where, where we are checking for air leakage through the window. Mm-hmm <affirmative> to see how airtight it is, the structural testing. We, we hit on that a little bit on our, uh, design pressure episode, where we're referring to the hurricane winds, applying a, a pressure to the outside of the window, pushing in on the window. And that's our positive design pressure. And when Charlie mentioned that we're flipping the products, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, uh, that's where we take the test buck, which is the assembly that you were talking about, uh, Sherry with the, uh, wall that we're building the windows into. And we flip it around mm-hmm <affirmative> so that we're now testing, wind pushing on the inside. Like it's trying to blow the window out of the opening. Right. And so there's a lot of, uh, the test bucks that are used for our products have to be portable mm-hmm <affirmative> because they're always flipping them around to do these different, positive and negative loads. Right. And so it's not like, not exactly like a building wall where it's gonna stay stationary, but it does, it does simulate that condition.
Speaker 3 00:05:47 Yeah. We, we flip our units because if you did have a failure and you had a positive pressure on it, mm-hmm, <affirmative> anybody that's standing in front of that could be at risk of getting hurt.
Speaker 0 00:05:55 Right. Yeah. That makes sense. So we do most of our testing, I believe it's missile level D
Speaker 2 00:06:01 That's correct. For, for our impact testing. Yes mm-hmm
Speaker 0 00:06:04 <affirmative> but then there's also different missile levels. There's I think there's like a, B, C, D, and E, right,
Speaker 2 00:06:09 Correct. Right. A, B, C, and D. Uh, and these are, these missile definitions are in the, as TM E 1996 standard. Okay. And that's the specification that we use to, um, to qualify impact testing. That's referenced in the international building code. Okay. It's good. Anywhere in the country, Dade county has a little bit more stringent requirements, right. Uh, the missile levels are B through E are the large missiles. Okay. Okay. And so those are all two by fours, um, that are shot out of the air cannon and they're different size missiles shot at different speeds. Missile levels, B and C are for wind speed areas that are a little bit lower mm-hmm <affirmative>, uh, wind speeds, whereas D can cover all of our Windborn debris areas. Mm-hmm <affirmative> right. And so, uh, that's why we typically test to that D level missile for the types of products that we sell, which, uh, our products are sold into residences and, and, and homes and, and high-rise buildings, commercial buildings, things like that.
Speaker 2 00:07:02 There is also an E level missile, which is required for buildings that are essential facilities. Okay. Hospitals, uh, fire stations, police stations, things like that, that have to be operational after hurricane event. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And there are locations in Florida, primarily in south Florida, where those particular buildings have to be tested with an E level missile product. Mm. But, uh, for basic protection, like what we typically sell products for the D level covers those. And then the, a level missile. I don't know if we talked about that previously, but the, a level missile is the, uh, small steel balls mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so, uh, that's what they would call what we refer to as a small missile test. Okay. And those are required for buildings, for installations that are above 30 feet above the ground. And the, the origins of that test is, uh, a lot of times you have in, on high-rise buildings, they'll have maybe a flat roof with gravel mm-hmm <affirmative>. And oftentimes in a hurricane, some of that gravel gets picked up in a storm and blown off the roof, and now it becomes flying debris. So you have a picture of a bunch of pebbles and a bunch of, uh, pieces of gravel flying at windows. Sure. And they, and they'll break the windows. And so that's why this small missile test was developed to simulate that gravel hitting the windows.
Speaker 0 00:08:11 Okay. All right. That makes sense. Cause I know we have a class actually around missile testing and it kind of focuses just on C and D mm-hmm <affirmative>. And for some reason, in my head I had, I thought that small missile was level C no SMI versus LMI. Right. Is how it's designated on the NOA.
Speaker 2 00:08:30 It, it can be confusing because a lot of time, a lot of people just refer to large missile as that D level missile that we're talking about. And then they say small missile is the, a level missile. Okay. And oftentimes people don't consider the ones that are in between, right. The B and the C. Okay. And date and Broward counties, the high velocity hurricane zone, the H V H Z testing mm-hmm <affirmative> requires that we test only to the D level missile, unless it happens to be in a central facility. Like I spoke about before mm-hmm <affirmative> then, then you would take that same missile. And, uh, the D level missile is fired at 50 feet per second. Mm-hmm <affirmative> or 34 miles per hour. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And then when it's an E level missile, that's basically the same missile. It's still a nine pound two by four mm-hmm <affirmative>, but it's, uh, fired out at, uh, 80 feet per second, as opposed to the 50 feet per second. Oh. And so that, that's what makes it a more severe impact.
Speaker 0 00:09:19 Right. Wow. I do wanna ask you a question that's totally off script. Uh, so Charlie, what is your favorite part of what you get to do?
Speaker 3 00:09:26 It's always something new,
Speaker 0 00:09:28 So you're never bored,
Speaker 3 00:09:29 Never bored. It's always something different.
Speaker 0 00:09:31 Nice.
Speaker 4 00:09:32 I did have one major question about the cycling process when you force it to cycle like, uh, 4,500, do you have to stand in front of it the entire time? Or do you just put it on side and start testing something
Speaker 2 00:09:43 Else?
Speaker 3 00:09:43 We test it and we monitor it. Mm-hmm <affirmative> um, we don't necessarily sit there unless we think there's gonna be a problem. Then we sit there and watch it the whole time. Oh, okay.
Speaker 2 00:09:51 Yeah. The purpose of that cycling test is when we have a hurricane, the impact test is to simulate flying debris that might be flying around in the storm, hitting the window. Once the window is damaged with the impact debris, then we have to run the cyclic test. And the cyclic test is simulating the hurricane loads. So the 4,500 cycles in the positive direction, right. We're simulating positive and negative pressure. So that, you know, it's kind of like a, I, I always look at it like the window's breathing. Yeah. Yeah. It's moving in and out in and out in and out, but that's kind of fatiguing the components on the window. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, it's stressing them putting positive and negative loads on them and more critically it's it's fatiguing the glass and the connection of the glass to the frame. Right. That's kind of the critical elements.
Speaker 2 00:10:31 You want all that to stay in place. And this constantly pushing in and out, in and out in and out tends to try and tear that glass away from the frame or the broken part of the glass, where the missile hit the glass. Mm-hmm <affirmative> that glass is completely broken, but it's only held together by the plastic in between the pieces of glass. Right. And so you're putting a lot of stress on that back and forth, back and forth. And if it's not designed properly, you can start to have tears in that plastic mm-hmm <affirmative>. And if that tear is large enough, it'll fail the test. Right. And so the requirement for that tear is a, it's a 16th of an inch by five inches. So it's not a very big tear. Uh, once it goes beyond that you fail the test and you, and you, uh, have to start all over again with another sample. Mm it's very frustrating. As Charlie mentioned, sometimes this test can run all day. If you're waiting around all day and at the end of the day, you start to get a tear at the end of the test, you're done. You have to start all over again and it has to test another day. Right. So that's the frustrating part about testing is that not everything is a, is a slam dunk right away. Right.
Speaker 0 00:11:30 So, right. Why is the testing, um, Lynn, this is a question for you. Why is the testing so important when it comes to our products?
Speaker 2 00:11:37 Well, the building codes require for Windborn debris regions impact testing. So these obviously for hurricanes mm-hmm <affirmative>, and that's the, uh, if you live in the coast of Florida, we're hit by a lot of hurricanes. Mm-hmm <affirmative> we have a high probability of, of getting hurricane strikes, right.
Speaker 0 00:11:50 Or Texas, or the Carolinas coast
Speaker 2 00:11:53 And the east coast. And so the, those requirements are written into the building code. And as you mentioned earlier, uh, rod Herberger had given a little history of, of where that, uh, where those requirements initiated right before, uh, hurricane Andrew. There weren't any impact testing requirements,
Speaker 0 00:12:08 Right. Be sure to tune in for upcoming episodes to help you understand the Fest industry, what you need to know when buying windows and doors and other related topics, you can find out more about
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Speaker 2 00:12:28 There's been structural load testing requirements for as long as the, you know, windows have been, uh, in existence, basically, mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, the primary purpose of the impact testing is to prevent internal pressurization of the building. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So if you have, let's say you have reaches in all of your windows and you have a bunch of windows in the house. Well, the hurricane winds can go into the house and pressurize it from the inside and kind of blow it up like a balloon mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so we have the impact requirements to maintain that envelope and keep it properly sealed so that those winds can't get in and pressurize the building.
Speaker 0 00:12:59 Right? Sure. And so that's one of the reasons that a non-impact product will have higher design pressure tolerances than an impact product, because you're not smashing it first and then expecting it to hold
Speaker 2 00:13:12 Partially, uh, for non-impact product. What makes those a lot of times have higher design pressures? The building code allows us to do what's called comparative analysis. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so when we test a non-impact window, we test the largest sized window that we're planning on selling because it's such a big window. We can't test a very high design pressure on that because it'll fail the product. So let's say we test it to 50 pounds per square foot. The building code allows us to, if I have a window that's half the size of, of that tested window, mm-hmm <affirmative>, I'm allowed to increase the design pressure on that smaller window. So I can have a much higher design pressure on the smaller sizes, because when the wind blows on that smaller window, all of the components of the window, they can take more load basically, right? Because they're, they're not spanning as much as the, the large window does. Got it. And so we're allowed to rate those smaller windows at higher design pressures. Okay. So if you have a small window, uh, that is non-impact and you compare that to a small window that is impact. You'll see that it has a higher design pressure. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, but it's not because the non-impact window is stronger and it's not because of the impact requirements. It's just because of that comparative analysis that allows that to be higher.
Speaker 0 00:14:19 Okay. And this is why you're an engineer and I'm not <laugh> you lost me a, a few minutes ago, but that's okay. Did you follow that, Alex? Okay. Of course you did.
Speaker 2 00:14:27 <laugh> one point also on that comparative analysis, one of the reasons why you can't do that with an impact window is because we, we test that largest window. We destroy it, and then we do the cyclic testing. Mm-hmm <affirmative> that is very empirical test. It's not something that you can calculate. Okay. Um, because with broken glass, it's random, it, your glass patterns do not though the fracture patterns are not the same every time you have an impact. Okay. And so we do really don't have a good way of doing an, a structural analysis on that window, uh, after that impact test. So we have those cyclic pressures that we run it through and we can't increase those. Right. The, the building code locks us down, say, okay, you've, if you've cycled that window to 50 pounds per square foot, you can never go higher than that without doing another test at a higher load. Wow. So that's why, so even if you go to a smaller window, I can't ever exceed that 50
Speaker 0 00:15:18 Mm-hmm <affirmative> okay.
Speaker 4 00:15:19 Plus wouldn't it be even more difficult because I might be getting this wrong, but on the NOA isn't there like three tests and a third test, like the tester gets to decide where they're shooting the missile. It's not even set, or am I thinking
Speaker 2 00:15:30 Incorrectly? No, the requirements are, we have to test three samples of, of a window. So of a given, uh, window series and the three samples are supposed to be like samples. They're supposed to be the same type of framing elements, the same type of glass. And each sample gets impacted in different locations. That's part of the test procedure and that qualifies the window to be impact resistant. So on NOAs, which are used in, um, south Florida in, you know, the high velocity hurricane zone. Those are tested to the TAs protocols, which are more stringent than the ASTM protocols. They require us to hit the missile more than once on a given product mm-hmm <affirmative>. So if we have a fixed window, we have to hit the glass two times before we do the cyclic test. Whereas the ASTM standards only require a single hit per specimen.
Speaker 2 00:16:15 So we have three windows, each window we test with one hit on each specimen in a different location for ASTM, but for TAs, we have to hit it twice on each window in different locations. And the other major difference is the TAs protocols. We are also required to do a missile hit on the, uh, structural members of the window. So, uh, a single hung window, for example, where we have a sash that moves up and down mm-hmm, <affirmative> where that sash meets the fixed part of the window above. We call that a meeting rail mm-hmm <affirmative>, it's basically where the two components are framed together. We are required to hit that with a missile okay. With, with the, uh, TAs protocols. And the reason that's, uh, more stringent is because now you've damaged a structural member. That's holding that window together. Mm-hmm <affirmative> now you're running it through these cycle pressures. And so you have a lot more probability of failure in that test than if you just hit a piece of glass on that
Speaker 0 00:17:05 Window. Right. And then it also has to be operable afterwards. Correct. So you have to be able to open it. <laugh> mm-hmm <affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative> so it's one thing to have it withstand the impact and then to withstand the cycling, but then you also have to be able to open the thing that's correct. Yeah. Okay. All right. And so I have another question. What is the process for approval? Once we feel that a product is up to our standards, because we do our own internal testing, it's just right around the corner from here. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. Um, but then we don't certify our own stuff. Right. We have to send it to someone else, a third party or officials at Miami date, is that right?
Speaker 2 00:17:42 Right. So there's different types of certification that we have. So, uh, we'll start off on a given product. Maybe, uh, if we Haven a new product that we haven't built yet, we'll do some R and D testing first mm-hmm <affirmative> to make sure we'll have an idea of how big of a product we want. We work with marketing and sales to say, okay, what's out in the marketplace. What do they want? Mm-hmm <affirmative> how big of a product do they want? Where are we gonna install this? Is it gonna be in south Florida? Uh, we gonna install it in Oklahoma, right? Depending on where you are in the country is gonna depend on what kind of design pressures we're targeting for the product. Right. Okay. So once we have all that criteria up front, then our design engineers will go to work and they'll start designing the product to make sure that they can withstand those loads mm-hmm <affirmative> and then we take it to the lab and do some R and D testing.
Speaker 2 00:18:23 Okay. Prove it out. They'll say, okay, it sounds good. Looks like this is a good design. Now we're gonna go. And we're gonna build our certification units with the Miami-Dade NOA process. That's that's our most stringent certification process. Mm-hmm <affirmative> we are required to meet with the engineers in Miami. Some people meet with them, you know, over the phone or, or via teams or something like that. We like to go down to Miami and talk to them in person mm-hmm <affirmative> we have to meet with them and we collectively decide on a test plan. And then we say, oh, we're gonna test five units or six units. And here's where we're gonna hit the, the missile on the units. And these are professional engineers that we're working with in Miami. Okay. And, uh, so we work together with them and they approve this test plan.
Speaker 2 00:19:02 So then we come back to Charlie's group and say, okay, Charlie, here's our test plan. Miami dad has said, this is what you can test to qualify this product. So then we'll go to the lab and we'll run through all those tests. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and what's required as part of that testing. We also have to have a professional engineer witness the test. So this is a third party professional engineer that is, uh, hired by, uh, our testing laboratory. Okay. And so they'll, they'll witness the test either in person or sometimes via, uh, a video camera where they're monitoring the test. Okay. Um, but either way they have to witness the test. They, they have to be part of that process. That way it gives the state additional assurance that, okay, you've tested it per correct protocol. Sure. Then after the test is finished, then we take that information. The code compliance group has to develop certification documents. So we developed the NOA engineered drawings, basically mm-hmm <affirmative> for this product, right. We have to draw all the pictures, the elevations, cross sections, all the details, all the parts and pieces, all
Speaker 0 00:19:59 The charts with the sizes and the
Speaker 2 00:20:01 D all the chart with the sizes. And we calculate the Anchorage. That's required to hold that into the opening. We calculate which glass based on our testing mm-hmm <affirmative>, which glass can be used for different, uh, different design pressures, right. Once that's all completed, then what we'll do is I am a professional engineer. So I, I sign and seal those drawings. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, but that's not good enough for the NOA process. So we have to go down to Miami, we take those drawings with us and we review those, or, or we submit them. We'll just, you know, maybe email them to them. And their professional engineers will review my calculations. Okay. And they'll say, okay, uh, yeah, we agree with them. They sound good. Then they will put their stamp of approval along with mine on the drawings. And then that's a, a complete Anoa certification drawing.
Speaker 2 00:20:43 And then we take those drawings and, and we upload them into the, uh, state approval approval system so that anytime someone pulls a permit with that particular product, they use that certification document. Right. And so that's the way the NOA process works. We also do certification through a Florida product approval system. Right. That's not necessarily through Miami-Dade mm-hmm <affirmative>, but we still have to have that same oversight, not as much oversight as Miami-Dade has, but we do have to work with a third party professional engineer. Mm-hmm <affirmative> that reviews my calculations, my drawings, and make sure that those are sufficient. Right. Then the state will approve those, a similar process, but not as much oversight Miami-Dade review is a lot more stringent than the state review.
Speaker 0 00:21:22 Right. I dunno if it's PGT just the brand or if it's PGT innovations has more NOA than any other manufacturer.
Speaker 2 00:21:29 Uh, yeah. At this point, that's, that's an accurate statement. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:21:32 That's amazing. I, I love that we work for a company that just decides we're gonna see a problem. We're gonna fix the problem and we're gonna continue to innovate. We're gonna continue to push the limits and push the boundaries. Okay. Well, is there anything else that we need to talk about with testing?
Speaker 2 00:21:45 I did wanna mention as well that, uh, outside the state of Florida, I know we're Florida focused company, but we, uh, you know, some of our subsidiaries do sell products outside the state of Florida. Sure. So we do also have testing to AHMA and ASTM protocols for areas outside of Florida. And there's really no product approval process outside the state of Florida, other than Texas <affirmative> Texas has, what's referred to as the TDI system, or it's the Texas department of insurance mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so they have a system where products in their, what they call the catastrophe zone, right. Uh, coastal, Texas,
Speaker 0 00:22:16 Right. We talked about that, like just where I wanna live, <laugh> the catastrophe zone.
Speaker 2 00:22:20 So in those areas, they require that you have products that have been registered with, with the Texas department of insurance. So basically what they do is they review our testing and make sure that we've tested to the appropriate standards in the international building code. Okay. And once those are approved, um, they have a similar system to Florida where, uh, they have drawings and calculations that have been uploaded in their system. And people can, uh, feel free to use those and be assured that they're meeting the, uh, the building code requirements for that area. Right. But outside of Texas and Florida, there's labeling requirements that mm-hmm, <affirmative>, you know, that you're required to indicate that you've, you've tested to AMA or to ASDM or both. If you have an impact product, the labels on that product are what the building departments use to assure that they've been tested to the proper standards. Right. But they don't have a engineering document requirement.
Speaker 0 00:23:09 Right. And then the islands kind of do their own thing.
Speaker 2 00:23:12 Yeah. A lot of times the art, when we sell to the islands and often times they'll just say, Hey, do you have an NOA for a product? And that's usually good enough for them. Right.
Speaker 0 00:23:19 So, yeah. Any, any other thoughts? Any last minute comments, questions? All right. Well, this has been a very informative conversation. I learned a lot today about testing and I also learned that I am not an engineer and I'm not going to be one anytime soon, but I love these conversations cuz I think it is really helpful for people that are in this space that need to understand, you know, maybe why our brands cost a little bit more, um, maybe why they can feel more confident when they're ordering our products and selling our products to the homeowners because there's a lot that goes into it and they can feel very safe and confident about what they're standing behind. All right guys. Well, thanks. Happy Friday to us all. Yeah. Have a great weekend. All right. Thank you. You too. All right. Thanks. PG C I university is the customer education team for an entire family of brands.
Speaker 0 00:24:02 We began with the original easy breeze porch and closure line then became P G T America's leading brand of impact resistant windows and doors. We then added CGI C G I C window, Western windows, new south windows, echo windows and doors and our latest acquisition and Lynn windows and doors. We create products built to withstand major storms, keeping people safe, secure, and prepared. Our exceptional brands give you the protection you need without compromising design or functionality. P G T I university is here to educate you our listener so that you can be more informed about window and door products.
