Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:05 Welcome to the clear impact podcast brought to you by P G T I university. Thanks for joining us today. My name is Sherry Connor and I am your host.
Speaker 2 00:00:20 I was washing my windows one day and got a little bit of extra water in there. And all of a sudden inside there was just water all over the SI of my window and I couldn't believe it. And it's like, and then I went out and looked and said, yep, sure enough. He blocked the weep poles. Oh. So, uh, you know, I know there's, I know it's, they're there for a reason. So yeah, sometimes people don't understand that, that that's part of the design
Speaker 1 00:00:37 In today's episode of windows and doors, 2 0 1, we are discussing design pressure and water infiltration. As it relates to Fe products, Lynn Miller shares some helpful tools in locating the requirements for your area and why this is critical to ordering products correctly. We also talk about water holding tanks, silver adapters, and we poles and all in 20 minutes. Enjoy good morning. We are here on the clear impact podcast and we are in episode five of windows and doors 2 0 1. And today we have in studio with us, Alex, back to help with the soundboard. Thank you. And also Lynn Miller is taking this one solo because we are talking about design pressure and water performance. And that is a pretty big deal when it comes to holes in your walls, which is what windows and doors really are. There are holes in your walls that we fill with windows and doors. And so I'm not an engineer, but as part of the university team, I have learned a little bit about design pressure and it's not just wind speed. It's a big formula that has a lot of different components. And so without getting too deep into engineer language, can you explain a little bit about this and why it's so important when you're placing an order?
Speaker 2 00:01:49 Sure. I can do that. So talking about wind speeds and wind pressures and all that, all this comes from a standard that's developed by the American society of civil engineers and the standard is called ASE seven. And the title of that standard is the minimum design loads and associated criteria for buildings and other structures. Okay, so this standard actually encompasses more than just wind loads, but there's also earthquake loads, snow loads, rain loads, ice loads for Northern climates. And most recently they've added a tornado chapter. So they have some tornado design requirements in there. Anything that can come out of building any kind of natural disaster or something that could detriment the building is covered by this standard. So it's quite a broad standard. Wow. And I'm actually privileged to be on the wind load subcommittee of the standard. I'm a voting member on that.
Speaker 2 00:02:34 And so I've been involved with that for the last two versions of the standard, the 2016 version, and most recently the 2022 version and within the next year or so, we'll be working on the 20, 28 version of that standard. So it's an ongoing research. There's a lot of wind researchers on this committee that were actually involved with a lot of the initial wind tunnel testing for buildings like the, uh, world trade center. Mm-hmm <affirmative> in New York and a lot of different high rise buildings. They were instrumental in the, the original testing of those buildings. So it's an amazing company of very smart people on this committee. Wow. It's an awesome privilege that I have to work with them on that. But anyway, that standard, basically they are the ones responsible for mapping out all of the wind speed requirements throughout the entire country. Wow. So they have a map that has lines that designate for each region of the country. What type of hurricane wind speed, or if you're in the center part of the country, non hurricane wind loads that you might see on buildings and they take those wind speed requirements. And they also have calculations that are built into that standard, where they determine what kind of design pressure that's required for buildings. And so that calculation, there's a lot of variation in that. So oftentimes we'll get asked to provide a window that meets 160 miles per hour. I want 160 mile per hour window. And we
Speaker 1 00:03:44 Always do. We, do we have those? Do we
Speaker 2 00:03:45 Make those? And the reason we can't just say yes, we have one or no, we don't is because there's variations. So in these calculations that we were talking about, there's a lot of factors that go into calculating that pressure. So I guess we didn't really talk about the design pressure. So it basically, if you think of a hurricane that's coming out of building the wind from the hurricane is gonna be pushing on the building, right? So when a wind's coming at the building, it's gonna put a positive pressure. So, you know, pressure is load divided by the area on a surface. So that load is coming out. The building, we call that a positive pressure. And then when the hurricane passes the building on the opposite side, there's a suction on the back side of the building that tries to pull out windows mm-hmm, <affirmative> pull 'em out of the opening.
Speaker 2 00:04:21 And that's what we refer to as a negative design pressure, a negative wind load, right on the building. And there is a calculation that directly converts that wind speed to a pressure. However, there's a lot of factors that add into that calculation, right? So one of the factors is depending on the location of your window, from the corner of a building versus in the center of a wall. So as the wind goes around the building, if you're in the corners, the wind tends to be more severe at the corner locations than if it's at the center of the wall, right? Another factor is elevation. So if you have a multi-story building, you're gonna have a different design pressure requirement for that building than you are for a single story residence. Right? And there's other factors based on topography of the area, if you're in an area that has a lot of trees around you or other buildings, like a suburban area, that's one type of topography.
Speaker 2 00:05:07 And then you might have a building let's say out in central Florida, somewhere where there's nothing open planes or something, and you have a lot of open area, there's less obstructions to break up the wind loads, right? And so you'll have a little bit higher pressure requirements in those areas. And so, because of all these variations, it's almost impossible for us to tell you if I'm in a given location that I meet 160 miles per hour, because it depends on your building. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. If I have a product that is designed to meet the wind pressure requirement in 160 mile per hour region for a single story building, then I could say, yeah, that product's rated for 160 miles per hour. Right? However, if I take that same product and I move it up 20 stories in the same location, I'm still in 160 mile per hour region, but I've moved that product up 20 stories. And now the pressure is much higher and that product may not be rated for that. Ah, so now all of a sudden, I can't say that that product is 160 mile per hour product for that building. So that's why we always rate to design pressure. We never say by wind speed.
Speaker 1 00:06:02 Right. And then water becomes a part of that too. So before we talk about water, I wanna just go back. So where do the dealers find the information of what DP they need to meet since we've already determined, it's not wind speed, it's design pressure. Where do they find that?
Speaker 2 00:06:17 That's a good question. So there is a table in the residential building code. So for residences that are, you know, a single family residence, uh, one in two family dwellings and, uh, one or two stories, typical single family homes. There is a section of the residential code it's table, R 3 0 1 0.2. And it actually has calculations from the ASE seven standard that have been tabulated. So you don't have to go through and do all the math it's already been done for you.
Speaker 1 00:06:40 Oh, nice. Thanks.
Speaker 2 00:06:41 And, and so we often will point our dealers to that table and they can actually go in there. They look at their wind speed, which is gonna be based on a map that is in the Florida building code or international code. If you happen to be outside of Florida and they can see where their building is located and what the wind speed requirement is. And another way of finding that wind speed, ASE seven has a website where you can actually type in your building location, your address, and it will figure out what that wind speed is for your exact location.
Speaker 1 00:07:08 Oh, nice.
Speaker 2 00:07:08 So it's a, it's a, it's the ASE seven hazard tool. Okay. And so it's a really nice tool, especially if you happen to be in an area where a wind speed line kind of crosses right over your house. Mm. For whatever reason and you know, or you maybe just to the east of it or just to the west of it. So what's my wind speed for that area. Right. And that's a tool that's often used, but you have to be careful with that as well. Because even though the a S C standard has wind speeds, there are some local jurisdictions that will have different requirements. They're not allowed to go below those mm-hmm <affirmative>. But if you're between two wind speed lines, for example, if you're between 150 and 160, if your building is exactly halfway between those per the standard, you're allowed to say you're in 155 miles per hour.
Speaker 2 00:07:48 Mm. But some jurisdictions will say, we don't want to have to figure that out. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so we're gonna say everybody that's between those two lines, we're gonna round it up right. To that one 60. Right. And so that's often done. So it's always important, no matter what you find out to check with your building department to make sure it's okay with them. Mm-hmm <affirmative> to do that figuring between the lines. Right. So that table, once, you know what wind speed you're in, it basically says, okay, well, what's the area, the square footage of your opening mm-hmm <affirmative>. And then you can go into that table. It's broken down into zone four or zone five. So zone four is the interior zone of a wall. Right. So it's a lower pressure requirement. And if you're in zone five, you're within a certain distance from the corner.
Speaker 2 00:08:24 Okay. And there's calculations in there to help you figure out if you're in zone four or five, and then you just go to the table, there's your design pressure. And then always, even though it's right out of the code, you should still check with the building official and make sure they're okay with you using that table. Right. Because there may be some other requirements because you also have to determine what topography to use for your area. Sure. And so there's some areas that may have a forest on one side and it may be opening on the other side. So, you know, it could be a, a little bit of a guess on where, what your, which zone you're supposed to be using.
Speaker 1 00:08:52 Right. And I would imagine, I don't know, know this for sure, but I would imagine if you're having to meet the higher limits, because you could just upgrade and just say, I'm just gonna go with the highest one. Well, then there's a cost factor involved that's because the product has to be built in a different way. There's different glass configurations, right. That will help contribute to meeting those higher pressures. So, I mean, most people don't wanna spend more than they need to on anything. Right. So you wanna find out what you have to meet mm-hmm <affirmative> and then if you decide, oh, Hey, it's only another $10,000 or whatever, to upgrade everything and go higher by all means, knock yourself out. But at least they know what has to be met. That's right. Okay. That makes sense.
Speaker 2 00:09:27 And then there's other, there's other ways to, to determine these pressures as well. So if you happen to be in a commercial building, for example, you're not allowed to use that table if you're in a multi-story commercial building. Okay. So you have to either consult with a third party engineer that will do the calculations for your building based on that a S C document, or there are online calculators that are available. But again, there's always disclaimers on those that, you know, you should check with an engineer or the building department to make sure it's okay to use those pressures that you calculate. And like we talked, um, another podcast we talk about always check with your building department, no matter what you're coming up with.
Speaker 1 00:09:59 Right. Got it. Okay. That's a lot of information. And so I know on design pressure, so we're gonna switch gears and we're gonna talk about water because this is a question that we ask a lot in university, in all of our course content, we talk a lot about, you know, the positive is coming at you. The negative is going away from you. The negative number will always be equal to, or greater than the positive number, because when water is coming at you, that's the positive side. And there's generally not water coming away from the building. So there's a higher tolerance before failure on that. Cuz that's what we're talking about. We're talking about where does it fail? So when we say window is rated for plus 90 minus 100, that means anything beyond that, it did not pass the certifications, the testing and all of that.
Speaker 1 00:10:43 Right? So it doesn't mean it won't last or a hold up if it's stronger than that. So the water is a big factor in the design pressures and obviously in hurricanes and, you know, thunderstorms, tornadoes, there's usually water with tornadoes and things like that. But definitely with hurricanes, you can get pounded with rain and it does come sideways. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So let's talk about water, be sure to tune in for upcoming episodes to help you understand the Fest industry, what you need to know when buying windows and doors and other related topics, you can find out more about us@pgtiuniversity.com. You can also find us on Facebook and LinkedIn. Like I know there's a big thing about the silver rise adapters and you know, they're this giant contraption that's on the track of your sliding glass store. So why do they have to be there? And can't you just take 'em off and put 'em up when a storm comes, like tell us about silver rise adapters.
Speaker 2 00:11:35 Sure. So yeah. Let me first talk about the water rating. So as you mentioned, they are based on the positive design pressures. Like you said, we're concerned if your water's coming at the building and the wind is pushing on it, that's gonna help try and force the water through if the wind's suction on the window, pulling away, your water's not gonna be drawing into the window, it's gonna be pulling away. So that's why we only focus on that. And so all of our Fest products, windows and doors all have a water rating that is based on the design pressure. It's a percentage, it's a specific percentage of that positive design pressure. And then what that means is when we go to the lab to do our structural testing, we also have to spray water on the product and apply that percentage of the positive pressure to the product while that water's being sprayed on the product.
Speaker 2 00:12:14 And so that's to help determine the water resistance rating of the product and for specifically sliding glass doors that you mentioned when we do that test, oftentimes what'll happen is the water will build up in the track of the door mm-hmm <affirmative> and the more water you spray on it, it's gonna build up higher and higher. And that's the reason why we have those LL rises on the back side of the track of the door is to keep that water from pouring into your home. And so the higher, the design pressure rating of the product, you know, since the percentage is directly proportional to that, the higher your water rating and the higher that water column's gonna build up on the product. And so these products are designed for that. They have Wes in the tracks. So that's why you see a lot of little slots or holes all throughout your sliding glass door tracks.
Speaker 2 00:12:53 And a lot of times people complain about those because we bugs can get in there. And, and, but, uh, they have to understand that those are critical to the performance of the water. If you let that water build up and you don't have a place for it to drain out, it will come up and it will overflow that riser. And so when someone orders a sliding glass door, it is very important for them to determine what that positive pressure requirement is for their building before they order the door. Mm-hmm <affirmative> this goes back to previously about when you order products, to make sure that you check with your local requirements before you order the product, because sometimes you can get the wrong product for the wrong application. Mm-hmm <affirmative> while, while the riser on a sliding door is one of those things. Mm. And so oftentimes in our order entry systems, they will default to our lowest risers mm-hmm <affirmative>, everything's listed, you know, we have a two and a half or three or four or four and a half, and they're kind of listed in order.
Speaker 2 00:13:40 And oftentimes we'll default to that short one. So if you're not paying attention and you don't realize that you have a higher design pressure, higher water rating required for that door, someone may just pick that riser, cuz they don't think about that. And then they get the door out and get ready to install it. And oops, my label now says I have a lower, positive design pressure rating because of the water resistance of that riser. Oh. And so then they will have to, and we've had this happen several times where someone will say, I ordered the wrong one. Can I fix this? It's a very easy fix because the riser is a separate component that gets snapped onto the door, right to the trap. So what they'll do is they'll order the taller riser that they need and we'll send them that. And when they install that, then it meets the higher rating.
Speaker 2 00:14:17 Even though their label says they meet a lower rating. Mm. And so, because their label is different from what their performance is, then it requires our department to write a letter. So this goes back to the job specific engineering that we also perform for our dealers. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so it's an engineering service that we perform for our dealers, right? So that's for the sliding doors. And so oftentimes we'll get complaints that, you know, my door's closed and I'm getting water inside my track inside the house what's going on here. And it's, this is not supposed to leak. And that goes back. It comes in that water can get in all the way in. But if it comes over that riser, then you have a problem. Right. But it shouldn't come up above that riser on the inside, you may see water in there, there for a time and that water needs to drain out.
Speaker 2 00:14:53 So it's important that you check those wheat poles, make sure they're clear, right? Make sure you don't have any debris in them. So that's why we always recommend that you regularly clean your sliding glass door tracks right. And clean the wheat poles out. So that, that has proper drainage. That makes sense. And another, another thing that, so one thing that's helpful, often people will complain about that riser as a trip hazard. Oh yeah. I'm gonna fall over the, you know, and it is, it's unfortunate, but that's the way these products are designed. There is some relief in the building code. So if you have a patio or Lanai, which is very popular in Florida, mm-hmm, <affirmative> most of these sliding glass door applications or these, uh, multi-panel sliding doors are in a patio or Lanai. There is a requirement that if you measure from the floor outside your door, all the way up to the ceiling, uh, of your patio right outside your door, let's say that's 10 feet.
Speaker 2 00:15:37 And then you measure from the face of your door out to the, uh, edge of your patio. If that's 10 feet also, you don't have to meet the water infiltration requirements of the building code. You could have no still rise at all. Just a flat track. You know, our basic track for the door provided you have that overhang protection of the door mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so that's something that's been written into the Florida building code because we recognize this as a very, very common application. And if the water's not gonna get to your door, doesn't make much sense to put this really high riser on. Right. But if you have that same door application on a balcony, on a multi-story building and you don't have any overhang in front of that door. Right. And you need that riser on
Speaker 1 00:16:12 It. Right? Yeah. There's a story that Patrick tells in one of the classes, when he is talking about civil riser, adapters, where there was a large building, I don't know if it was a hotel or a condo or something. And I think it was in port Charlotte or Cape coral. It was not far from here. And we had just redone, like all siding glass doors throughout the whole building. And then there was a storm that came through and they of course had all kinds of issues and problems and leaks and you know, on a multi-story building, water goes down. And so it created quite a bit of damage for them. And they, you know, called and said, Hey, your doors are leaking and we have a problem and you guys gotta pay for all of this. And you know, they came out, you know, we came out, send someone out and inspected it and said, where's the civil rise adapters. And they said, oh, those things we took 'em off. And we're like, yeah, yeah. We're not, we're not responsible. Yep. So they're there for a reason. That's right. And you don't wanna wait until afterwards to find out why. So yeah. So leave those things on. Yes. Leave them on.
Speaker 2 00:17:06 Yep. And that, that happens more than we want to know. Yeah. As code compliance, we don't want to hear things like that, but we know, we know it happens. Yeah. Uh, and as you just mentioned, and I've heard that before other applications where somebody maybe they'll put it on for the inspection. Right. And then they'll take it off and either recycle the metal or they'll put it in their garage or something like that.
Speaker 1 00:17:24 Right. Forget about
Speaker 2 00:17:25 It and forget about it. And then they have those issues. So yeah.
Speaker 1 00:17:27 Yeah. Yeah. So buyer beware, consumer beware. There's a reason that it's designed that way. There's a reason that we recommend that there's a reason
Speaker 3 00:17:34 You started talking about this, but then you changed topics. If we adapt the civil rise to be a different size, you started talking about a letter.
Speaker 2 00:17:41 Yeah. One thing that our code compliance team, we also provide job specific engineering services. And so in that case for an adapter like that, that where we're providing that higher adapter, we can actually write an engineered letter. So I'm licensed in the state of Florida and also in Texas as a professional engineer. So I can sign and seal that letter. And it would qualify that new adapter for that particular product. And so that way, if the building officials looking at it and they look at that sticker and they say, oh, well that positive pressure only says 46 and you need a 90 for this building. Well, our letter would say, Hey, when you put this riser on, now it meets that 90 PSF requirement. And you're good. And so that's just to give the inspector assurance that someone's looked at it and, and it's qualified the application.
Speaker 1 00:18:20 Nice. Got it. Thank you.
Speaker 2 00:18:22 That's a good question. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:18:23 Alex has lots of great questions. Mm-hmm <affirmative> all right. So one last question about water on horizontal rolling windows and on sliding glass doors. Sometimes the water comes into the track. Is that okay? Yes,
Speaker 2 00:18:34 Absolutely. So we talked about the sliding glass door where there's water in the track. And again, those weeps have to drain that water out. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So if there's a heavy rainstorm, you will likely see water in those tracks. So, you know, just don't be alarmed about it. It may give you some extra place for your dog to have a little drink, but right. Other than that, don't worry about it. It will eventually drain out, provided those weeps aren't blocked horizontal sliding windows are sometimes called horizontal roller windows. Mm-hmm <affirmative> because we have wheels on the bottom of the sash. Those also are similar performance. Those are actually built with a tank in the bottom of the product. So in the SI of the product, there's actually a containment area. So when water comes into the outside of the window, it actually drains into that tank and that tank will eventually fill up and sometimes will come up into the track a little bit.
Speaker 2 00:19:16 But again, it doesn't come over that riser on the inside, into your home. It's not a problem. Again, this product also has we poles on the outside and that those are very important to drain that water out. So it just allows more water to be built up before it drains out. And it's very important as we spoke about with the sliding doors to make sure those we poles are not obstructed. Some of our products have a little plastic flap that covers those holes. Mm-hmm <affirmative> for the insect reason, right? So it keeps insects from coming inside there. But when the water pushes on it, as it's draining out, it'll open up and, and, and then drain the water out. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. I remember I actually, before I changed windows out in my house, the previous owner had issues. Their little plastic covers came off and I guess they got tired of the insects coming in and they put tape on the outside.
Speaker 2 00:19:57 They taped the we pole shut. Oh no. And I didn't realize this until I was washing my windows one day and got a little bit of extra water in there. And all of a sudden inside there was just water all over the sill of my window and I couldn't believe it. And it's like, and then I went out and looked and yep, sure enough. He blocked the weep poles. Oh. So, you know, I know there's I know it's, they're there for a reason. So yeah. Sometimes people don't understand that, that that's part of the design. We've actually had complaints where people said, Hey, your window's leaking. And it was like, well, no, it's not. It's leaking into a tank that's designed to leak into, right. It's not coming into your home.
Speaker 1 00:20:26 Right. So it's okay to have water in the track, in the sill. Right. And then little, we pulls mm-hmm <affirmative> are just that it's to allow the water to go through. Right. Got it. Okay. And then the little we pull covers mm-hmm <affirmative> have a little flaps that should be pointing down. Right. So the bugs don't crawl in. Correct. And if they don't know where those are or can't find them, them just call us and we'll send you some I'm. Sure. Right, right, right. Okay. All right. Well, this has been a really good episode. Thanks for not spending three hours talking about design pressure and water performance. Mm-hmm <affirmative> I know that can be a very complex thing. And as an engineer, obviously, that's your wheelhouse. All right, Lynn, thank you so much for your time today. We really appreciate the conversation and we look forward to the next one. All right. Thanks
Speaker 0 00:21:06 For having me.
Speaker 1 00:21:07 Yeah. Thanks. PG C I university is the customer education team for an entire family of brands. We began with the original, easy breeze porch and closure line then became P G T America's leading brand of impact resistant windows and doors. We then added CGI C G I C windows, Western windows, new south windows, echo windows and doors, and our latest acquisition and Lynn windows and doors. We create products built to withstand major storms, keeping people safe, secure, and prepared. Our exceptional brands give you the protection you need without compromising design or functionality. P G T I university is here to educate you our listener so that you can be more informed about window and door products.
