Episode Transcript
[00:00:09] Speaker A: Welcome to the Clear Impact Podcast brought to you by PGTI University. Thanks for joining us today. My name is Sherry Connor and I am your host.
[00:00:24] Speaker B: Good morning. We are here on the Clear Impact Podcast and we are doing a series called Windows and Doors 301 and we're doing some deep dives into some topics that are really hopefully going to be helpful to our dealer audience and we're going to leverage some of the in house expertise that we have. And so today we are going to be talking about NFRC and we have some really amazing people from our code compliance team in studio today. We have returning Elisa Wilson and also returning Logan Yoder and Alonzo. More lesson. Okay, everyone's back. But for anybody that may have missed the previous episode, can you each just do a brief introduction, tell us how long you've been here, what your role is, whatever credentials you have, that'd be great. All right, so we'll just go around the table. So Lisa, we'll start with you. Hi.
[00:01:15] Speaker C: Lisa Wilson, been with the company for almost 30 years. Was one of the founding members of our code compliance department.
Started back when the new Florida building code came out back in 2002. And then we are going to be talking about NFRC and nfrc. Back in the day I actually used to help out and do some of the simulations on this. And since then we've grown and we have the engineers who are much more experienced in that than I am because NFRC has really taken off and what we need for our ratings and it's changed so much through the years. So Logan and Alonzo, they're great.
[00:01:56] Speaker B: Awesome.
[00:01:57] Speaker D: All right, Logan, super excited to be here. I'm Logan Yoder. I graduated from Liberty University with my mechanical engineering degree just over two years ago in June of 2022. So I started at PGT at that point as a code compliance engineer focused on the both the structural and thermal testing and certification of our products.
[00:02:15] Speaker B: Awesome. And so are you part of nfrc?
[00:02:18] Speaker D: Yes, our entire company is a member of nfrc and Alonzo and I members in there.
[00:02:24] Speaker B: Awesome. All right, Alonso.
[00:02:26] Speaker E: Yes. Hi. Great to be here. Excited. So my name is Alonso Molassim. I'm a senior code compliance engineer for the past two years here at pgt. Before that one, I was a senior certification for ICC International Code Council in the division of Solar Generating Certification Corporation.
[00:02:43] Speaker B: Wow. So once again, the right people on the right topic. This is amazing. That's one of the things I love about this podcast is being able to just further my own Understanding, but also leveraging who we have in house to help our listeners and our customers education as well. So what is the NFRC and what do they do?
[00:03:03] Speaker E: So the NFRC is the National Administration Rating Council. It's a nonprofit organization that provides standards rated standards. So those ratings are the U factor, the heat gain coefficient, the facility transmissivity, and the condensation resistance.
[00:03:21] Speaker B: So all four of those factors. So they rate all of the products, they get tested.
[00:03:27] Speaker E: So we get empirical data, but also we do it in some modeling.
[00:03:30] Speaker B: All right, and that's national, so just the U.S. correct. And so who is in this organization other than us? So Mitre Brands, previously, PGT Innovations is part of that organization. And so who all else is in it?
[00:03:46] Speaker D: Yes, as you said, pgt. Now, Mitre Brands is a member of nfrc and all of their subsidiary brands are modeled and rated under this program. But there's three main groups of people or organizations that are part of nfrc. The first is the fenestration industry. So that'd be like U.S. manufacturers, inspection agencies, contractors, consultants, people that deal with windows and doors all the time. They're the main members. But then there's also labs. So the labs help with the actual testing and simulation of the products to the NFRC standards. And so they're also part of this program and they're third party to make sure that everything's being done correctly and that these manufacturers upholding the standards and performing them the way they should be. And then lastly, there's also general interest. So this is things like researchers, government agencies, organizations to help improve the standards and how things are simulated and modeled to make sure they're as accurate as possible. So all three types of organizations are part of NFRC and contribute to what it really is.
[00:04:47] Speaker B: So like, how often do you guys, like, do you meet? Like, what does that look like to be a member?
[00:04:52] Speaker D: Sure. So we meet in person. There's a fall meeting every single fall in October. And typically that's somewhere that's cold. But we want to be in Chicago this year.
[00:05:03] Speaker B: It's not too cold in Chicago in October.
[00:05:06] Speaker D: I mean, it's cold for my Florida blood.
[00:05:08] Speaker C: Chicago's great.
[00:05:10] Speaker B: November 1st is kind of the cutoff. Like don't go north after November 1st.
[00:05:15] Speaker D: But yeah, so we're borderline.
[00:05:16] Speaker B: Yeah, they're pushing it.
[00:05:18] Speaker E: So Logan and I, we're going to be on that conference. We're very excited.
[00:05:21] Speaker B: Okay, nice.
[00:05:23] Speaker D: And then throughout the year, there's a spring meeting, which is typically virtual, and it's typically just task groups and different groups meeting over video calls to do any work in the meantime that's not done in the physical meeting. And then throughout the year, there's different task groups that meet on a more regular basis. For example, Alonzo and I are both part of the specific size task group. So NFRC does model sizes for each operator type. So, for example, we simulate all sliding glass doors at the same size and all single hungs at the same size. And that's to really compare apples to apples, products from two manufacturers, or even two products within the same manufacturer's line, how they perform thermally. But for example, on these big homes that we're building out here on the Gulf coast that are right on the water with large glass walls, they're going to perform differently than the sizes we simulate. And so, for example, H VAC contractors sizing H VAC units for these homes, they're taking the NFRC values, the U factor and SHGC from the simulations at a small size, assuming they're the same for a very large size, where a much larger window is going to allow much more radiation from the sun, which could contribute to the heating of the home. And maybe that H vac unit doesn't keep up in that example.
[00:06:33] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:06:34] Speaker D: And so what we're doing at NFRC is trying to get a formula to say, okay, we might simulate at this size, but how does a window at a bigger size perform in comparison so that these contractors can have data that's more accurate to what's being installed to accurately size the other aspects of the home.
[00:06:52] Speaker B: Sure. So that makes sense.
[00:06:54] Speaker D: So we meet on a weekly basis as part of that task group. And so there's many groups that on a more frequent basis.
[00:07:01] Speaker A: We are sharing our expertise around all topics relating to the window and door industry. Whether you are a customer selling our products or a homeowner doing research, The Clear Impact podcast provides helpful content that makes an impact. Subscribe today wherever you listen to podcasts.
[00:07:20] Speaker B: So, Lisa, you mentioned this in your intro. So when you're doing simulations and validation, what is that process like? What was it when you were doing it and what is it now?
[00:07:31] Speaker C: It's a lot.
[00:07:32] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:07:33] Speaker C: It's a lot of moving things around in numbers and adding this, making sure you have all the components, the glass, putting it into this huge spreadsheet and database. But honestly, it has changed so much. And I'm going to let Logan and Alonzo answer exactly what they go through, because as you mentioned, it's been years since I've actually dipped into that one.
[00:07:56] Speaker D: Okay, so I can explain what we do now. So first you start out by simulating all of the different configurations you want to sell for a product. So that might be different frame types, that might be different reinforcement types, sill heights, sill risers, and then all of your different glass options. So that's your low ease, your tents, your combinations of low ease and tents, your different gaps, your air gap versus your argon fill, your different glass makeups. And so you take all those different configurations and if you want to have every single possible option, that turns into thousands and thousands of different configurations. Yeah, and so we simulate every, every single one of those lines. Currently we use outside third party simulators, but we provide them the glazing matrices of what we want to see. So what glass makeups that we want them to simulate. And what they will do is they'll actually model them in Therm, which is a computer modeling software, and then they can export them into Window, which is another thermal modeling software, and combine all the different frame types with all the different glass types that we want to sell. And so that's done for every single possible configuration. And then what we do is you pick your best performing option and you have to physically build it and send it to a test lab in order to confirm your simulation results. So that test unit has to test within 10% of what your simulated value is in order to confirm that your full simulation is correct.
[00:09:23] Speaker B: Oh, that makes sense.
[00:09:24] Speaker D: So once that validation testing is complete, then it's sent to your inspection agency and certification agency who issues a CAR a certification authorization report, and it's sent to NFRC for display in the certified product directory. And so that's when we receive the values back. And that's how we fully certify our product lines.
[00:09:43] Speaker B: Wow. And that's just baseline, right? That's just like to meet the requirements to sell a product that's not even striving to meet Energy Star or anything like that. That is a requirement that we have to meet in order to sell products.
[00:09:57] Speaker D: Right, Using those values.
[00:09:58] Speaker E: Yeah, it's a requirement you want to meet nfrc, sure. So in each window and door need to have a individual label. So that's one of the challenges of production, is how to create a label for every single unit. And every label is different.
[00:10:15] Speaker B: So if I'm buying Windows, do I have to buy something with an NFRC label on it or.
[00:10:19] Speaker D: No, you don't. But more and more building departments are requiring it. They want to see that you're meeting in order to comply with the Florida building code almost all the time. NFRC labels required.
[00:10:30] Speaker C: So I'll jump in here just a little bit. So when it comes to the code, as I mentioned, it does not have to have one. But to meet most of the requirements like we were talking about for your residential, commercial, et cetera, you would need a certified NFRC product. But an instance where possibly they want some special custom type of glass and there's no NFRC certification on that glass within the product because it's based on the whole product, not just the glass. The code will allow you to use default values. But heads up, most of those default values aren't going to meet what you need.
[00:11:09] Speaker D: And so it's going to almost force you into the performance path that we talked about in the last meeting. Those default values are punitive, almost like conservative values. Very conservative. And then when you plug those into your performance value calculations, you're going to have to upsize your H vac or many of other things. You're going to have to improve the overall performance of the home in order to compensate for those. That's why we try to have NFRC information for anything we plan on selling.
[00:11:34] Speaker B: Wow, that's a lot. I had no idea that that was what was happening behind the scenes. To come up with all of those numbers, that's crazy. Okay, now I have a little bit of an idea of what you guys do all day. I'm like, I don't know what everybody does over here. They're just quiet.
[00:11:48] Speaker D: Just look at Excel spreadsheet.
[00:11:51] Speaker C: It's a lot. It's huge. Yeah, the nfrc. Another thing going back to code we have, people will call up and ask us to give them the numbers for this window and they're like, yeah, I have this window. It's impact it has. And they'll give us one thing. And it doesn't work like that. To get the real thermal value, we need exactly what they have out there. And as they mentioned before, you have to test everything. If you go into nfrc.org, you'll see if they pull up, for an example, horizontal roller.
It's literally thousands of lines. So we really need more information to give people our accurate information.
[00:12:31] Speaker B: Right. Well, and Patrick talks about this in some of our classes. So when you take size and frame, type and configuration, glass package, color, impact versus non impact, tint, argon, like you said, like all of those different variables, and then you have to come up with every single variation of that I think he said it's like over 47,000 different combinations of product that we can.
[00:13:00] Speaker E: Build for one product. Yes.
[00:13:02] Speaker D: Yeah. Like, for example, our latest recertification for our vinyl sliding glass door has over 60,000 glass options.
[00:13:08] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. 60,000.
That's insane.
[00:13:12] Speaker D: It's a nightmare.
[00:13:13] Speaker B: Yeah. I can't even imagine what that spreadsheet looks like.
[00:13:16] Speaker D: So then organizing that data in a way that our IT team can upload it into our order entry software is becoming more and more challenging.
That's a good way to put it.
[00:13:26] Speaker B: That makes my head hurt. Oh, that's so much. Okay, so we go through all of that, right. Because it's the best thing to do for our customers and for the industry and for homeowners and for energy efficiency. How does this impact the industry and our customers? Like, what is the benefit of all of that for them?
[00:13:46] Speaker E: So the benefit for the customer is gives Apple to Apple comparison. So they look a single home product from us and from the competitors. And they can see the labels and they can have an educated decision on what to buy. And that will be based on the performance on the window or in the door also, which allows us to certify to different programs like Energy Star, also allow builders envelope raters to use those numbers to put it into their software to raise the entire envelope of the home or the commercial building. Also helps to improve the industry as a total. So it helps us to be better, to come with better materials. So instead of using aluminum, now we're using vinyl. Instead of using aluminum reinforcement, use composite reinforcements. And the thing that we're doing right now is then we've spoken before is with the insulating glass. Now, before we use an air, now we're using argon gas. It's a heavier gas. So it's suppressor, convection. Or the product that we are developing in the market right now is the thin triple.
[00:14:58] Speaker B: Right.
[00:14:58] Speaker E: That's a double insulated glass.
[00:15:00] Speaker B: Yeah. Because we want to have as much energy efficiency as possible. Because I read somewhere, I don't remember the Source now, like 30% of all energy in the US is from buildings. Is that true?
[00:15:12] Speaker E: Yes.
[00:15:12] Speaker B: Okay. I didn't just make that up. So if you have any other questions or need additional resource around this, obviously you can reach out to our code compliance team here at PGT Innovations. Now mitre brands or nfrc.org is another source of that. And you know, the other note, and I'll just say this on Lisa's behalf, don't take the labels off.
[00:15:33] Speaker C: Correct.
Please, please leave those labels on leave the labels on.
[00:15:38] Speaker B: Your inspectors will be happy about that. You won't have to call us. You won't have to wait. It'll just be easier for everyone. All right, Well, I appreciate your time. Thank you all so much for your expertise and I hope you have an amazing day. Thank you.
[00:15:51] Speaker E: Thank you for having me.
[00:15:52] Speaker C: Thank you so much.
[00:15:53] Speaker B: Thanks.
[00:15:55] Speaker A: The Clear Impact podcast is brought to you by PGTI University. We are a part of Mitre Brands, a family of leading window and door brands united by our passion for quality and relentless pursuit of 100%. One of the missions of Mitre Brands is to unite and deliver the finest customer experience possible across the nation. Our window and door brands deliver regionalized X expertise and products backed by a national company. PGTI University is here to educate you, our listener, so that you can be a more informed consumer of window indoor products.
