Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:04 Welcome to the Clear Impact Podcast, brought to you by P G T I University. Thanks for joining us today. My name is Sherry Connor and I am your host.
Speaker 0 00:00:17 Good
Speaker 1 00:00:17 Morning. We are here on the Clear Impact Podcast and today we are gonna be speaking about sea turtles and glass tint. And if you live in Florida and you live by the water, this is for you. And today we are speaking with Lynn Miller, who is Code Compliance Manager. And Lynn, you've done several episodes with me, but give us a little, just a brief recap of who you are.
Speaker 2 00:00:42 Sure. It's nice to be here, Sherry, and thanks for having me back. As you said, I'm the code compliance manager for P G T Innovations and I'm responsible for all of our product approvals, certifications for all of our products with respect to wind load testing, impact testing. And I'm also responsible for all of our code efforts. So we're involved with building code development, standards development, and as we'll be talking about today, sea turtle requirements as well. So,
Speaker 1 00:01:08 Nice. Thank you for making time. We spoke recently with Melissa Maxey from Mote Marine Laboratory. She's a senior biologist there and she shared some really great information about the sea turtle conservation program that she oversees under the F W C, which is the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission. And I get to volunteer for them here and there. Cool. Yeah, so that was a great conversation. We could have talked all day about sea turtles, but that's not why we're here. We're gonna talk about the glass. And so your team in staying up to date with ever changing codes and things like that, obviously our products are built and designed to meet appropriate codes in the appropriate settings. And so with that, you're pretty involved with F G I A, which is the Fenestration and Glazing Industry Alliance. That's right. So many acronyms, <laugh>, which you told me that they've been working with F W C, and so I'm excited to hear what you can share with us about that today. Sure.
Speaker 2 00:02:10 So let me just start with how we got involved with the F W S C. So back up a little bit and talk about the turtle requirements. They're not actually building code requirements. Right, so what it is, is there's a statewide model lighting ordinance that's put out by the D E P, the Department of Environmental Protection. And within that ordinance it has what they call a model lighting code. And it's a suggestion for how to protect sea turtles through different types of lighting restrictions, shielding lights, certain types of wavelengths, that type of thing. They also have information in there about glazing. So any glazing that's being used in a building that faces the beach that's parallel to the shoreline or also perpendicular to the shoreline, uh, walls that are on the sides of the building all have to comply with the uh, glazing requirements. So originally those requirements, basically the window has to meet a 45% visual light transmittance.
Speaker 2 00:03:01 So it's basically letting 45% of the light through the glass or it can be less than that. So that's been the standard for many years. And what's happened a couple of years ago, one of our dealers called us up and said, Hey, we're being asked to uh, supply glass that meets 15% visual light transmittance. And we're like, huh, that doesn't sound right. So we actually took a look at the jurisdiction that the customer was asking about. This was in Fort Myers Beach and we looked at their ordinance and let me back up a little bit. The model lighting ordinances, a statewide ordinance, and each individual jurisdiction throughout the state of Florida can adopt their own version of that. So they take that general language and they kind of make it more personal for each jurisdiction. So it's very difficult to enforce across different counties because everybody has their own ordinance, but it's supposed to be based on that statewide model lighting ordinance. Right. Because
Speaker 1 00:03:51 Building codes are the same way. Right? We have the standard, which is the state, and then counties can add to that. Cities can add to that. So you have your bare minimum and then you have whatever your area requires on top of it.
Speaker 2 00:04:04 It's a little different with the building codes. Previously before the building code, which is a statewide building code, uh, Florida used to be the same way. We used to have each individual county had their own building code in a sense. And in 2001, when the Florida Building code came out, it kind of unified all this and we have a statewide code. But you're right, you do have individual state or individual counties are allowed to adopt their portions of it. But for the most part, the building code is a statewide code. So with the turtle ordinance, although they have that statewide guideline, they still create their own independent individual ordinances for each jurisdiction. So in the case of Fort Myers Beach, they actually had 15% on their ordinance posted on their website. So we said, well that's gotta be a typo. That can't be right because we've always known the model lighting ordinance was always 45.
Speaker 2 00:04:50 That's the way it's always been. And we came to find out that the Fish and Wildlife Commission was actually recommending, not mandating, but recommending 15% or less for glazing. And so that's how we got started. We actually contacted the Fish and Wildlife Commission directly and we uh, started meeting with them and saying, why are you suggesting this when it's always been 45? And we come to find out that they were working with some tinting experts, primarily from the automotive industry. And so they had recommended a 15% tinting. And so they put an applied film on some different locations and said, that looks pretty good. That seems like that'll work. Oh
Speaker 1 00:05:24 No. So they
Speaker 2 00:05:25 Started recommending that and we're like, okay, well we need to take a step back here. Yeah. And so we worked with them directly. We've met, this was probably two years ago in 2021 is when we started working with them. And we met directly with them over on the East coast in Tequesta, Florida and met with a few of the higher ups in the turtle ordinance world. And we've been working well with them. And we just said, our concern is that we have a recommendation that's not really based on any kind of science. And when we really dug into this, we found out that the 45% is also not based on any kind of science or testing or anything. Okay. So we said, okay, well this is a good time to actually do something about this. So we worked directly with them, the F G I A organization, our glass suppliers, a lot of our glass suppliers are members of F G I A.
Speaker 2 00:06:09 And they donated glass samples. So we actually had small glass samples that were used in the testing and it was a very interesting process. They have what they call a Y maze. So they have this little tunnel, they put the hatchlings in a tunnel and they go down the tunnel and then they have a choice at the end of the tunnel, a little y maze in one side, they had a tent that was 45%. And then the other side, they varied the tent. So they did various tests with actual hatchlings to see kind of statistically which ones they would tend towards. And that study was done in the summer of 22 and that was completed. And the results are still tentative, they're still working on finalizing the results, but what they found was it actually seems like it's more like 30% than the 45%, which is interesting because that it just kinda landed that way.
Speaker 2 00:06:55 But it's exactly halfway between 15 and 45. It sounds like it was made up, but that's what their study found. So they're actually promoting the 30%. They're recommending that they haven't posted anything on their website about it. But in talking with different jurisdictions, everybody knows that this testing's been done. They're kind of leaning that way. And so we expect in the coming months, once they have a finalized report, that more jurisdictions will start moving towards that and eventually they'll be working with the D E P and updating the statewide ordinance as well. Because now we have actual testing. We actually have research that supports the number where we didn't have that in the past. Right. And so what that means for the glazing industry, it means, well now we have darker glass requirements, so we have to adapt. We'd have to look and see what options we have. There are options out there. It's just not as readily available as the options that meet the 45%. So it's the challenge for the glass industry and for the fenestration industry in general.
Speaker 1 00:07:51 Be sure to tune in for upcoming episodes to help you understand the fenestration industry, what you need to know when buying windows and doors and other related topics. You can find out more about us@pgtiuniversity.com. You can also find us on Facebook and LinkedIn.
Speaker 1 00:08:09 And just in case anybody's listening and doesn't really understand, tint is not something that we add on after the glass. It is something that is inherent in the glass and it comes from the float glass manufacturers. If a tint is applied to our glass, it actually voids the warranty. That's correct. So you don't wanna do that. <laugh>, don't void the warranty. We have an excellent warranty, so don't void the warranty by adding tint. But I'm guessing that this is not something that people are gonna have to run out and retrofit all of their existing properties or condos or houses or whatever. It'll just be in compliance with anything going forward that's new.
Speaker 2 00:08:50 Correct. It'll be new construction, but also in retrofit construction. So if they're gonna be remodeling, replacing windows, it will have to meet that new requirement. And as far as tint, that's the primary way that we get to the different BT levels is through tints. But there are also colored interlays that can be used that can actually darken the glass as well, and different coatings on the glass that can be used. So there's a lot of different ways. But you did mention the aftermarket window films, and that's what we've actually been very vocal about that with the F W C and with individual jurisdictions that we've spoken with. The model lighting ordinance does mention that you can basically put an aftermarket tint on these products. We wanna stress to all of our dealers and our customers that if the product is designed with glass that can accept that it's not an issue, but you don't know that.
Speaker 2 00:09:36 You don't know what you have out in the field. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So if you put a tint on a piece of glass that's maybe not fully tempered or it hasn't been designed to take higher loads, what can happen is that tint will make the glass darker and it will tend to trap heat in the glass. Sure. And we can cause thermal stress cracking. Right. And so that's the reason why we typically void the warranty, because we don't know every window that they're gonna be putting films on. And so some windows may be designed that they would be able to accept that others may not. So we don't know that. And so we wanna stress that you can't just go out and it seems like an easy solution. It's a cost effective solution, but there's downstream effects on that as well. And like you said, you can void your warranty for your window. So we try to avoid that as much as possible.
Speaker 1 00:10:18 Right. We talk a lot about that in the university, and I think Jim Hy and I did a podcast a couple years ago about glass tint and stress cracks and all of that. So yeah. And the turtles, the reason for all of that is because they're endangered. And I found out from Melissa that South Florida is the number one habitat in the world for loggerhead turtles. And I did not know that. I thought I knew a lot about turtles. I did not know that. So I'm always learning too. So when can we expect a final declaration? Do you know?
Speaker 2 00:10:48 We don't know that for sure. We've been in constant communication with the F W C, and as soon as they have a final report, they're gonna let us know. The F G I A will actually be able to review the final report before it gets published. So we have the opportunity again with our partnership with them, they've really opened up and it's been really good. In fact, last December of 22, they invited myself and a couple others from the F G I A to attend a, uh, light pollution management workshop in Gainesville. And so that was very interesting. I learned a lot about the lighting requirements in general. We've always looked at it through tents and we're always concerned about tents. But we learned that there's a lot of different lighting solutions. Obviously people can put blinds in their homes and things like that. I think the, what we found is the biggest reason that they don't rely on those is because those are active efforts.
Speaker 2 00:11:35 You have to close your blinds, you have to turn your lights off, those types of things. And there's cases where people will be seasonal residents and snowbirds, and they'll leave their blinds open during turtle season and they go up north, or they'll leave lights on mm-hmm. <affirmative> and they forget to turn 'em off and they go up north and then, you know, then they're in violation of some of these turtle ordinances. So they're very serious about this. And we met with people from jurisdictions throughout all of Florida about almost every coastal jurisdiction. And we gave them a presentation on how float glass is tinted the process for making that. And one of the things we mentioned in that workshop was when float glass is made, and you might have mentioned this in previous podcasts with Jim, it's a continual process. You can't just change it on a dime. Right. If you try and change from one tent to another, they have to change the whole batch. And it's very difficult to make those changes quickly. And so it takes a while for them to get different types of tents in the system. So it, it's an ongoing process to get tense up to, up to date.
Speaker 1 00:12:33 And the thickness of the glass makes a difference too. So the thicker the glass, the darker the color that I remember. I've learned a couple things since I've been here. Is there anything else that you would wanna share about this?
Speaker 2 00:12:43 Not really. Like I said, we've been working closely with the F W C and one of the things we stressed as an industry is that we didn't want them to think that we are anti turtle. You know, we do care about the sea turtles and that's why we're involved directly with this. We wanna help out as much as we can, but at the same time, we wanna temper that with reasonable science and we wanna make sure that the decisions that are made are based on real science. And we feel like we've done a good job with the research that's been going on. So
Speaker 1 00:13:09 I can't imagine the depth of conversation between engineers and marine biologists. I bet that was just so interesting.
Speaker 2 00:13:16 It was. And they all came up to us after our presentation. It was like, wow, we didn't know that. We didn't know that this is all the things that go into making a window and to, you know, tinting glass and that type of thing. So it was really good overall, and we made a lot of good contacts. So as we start to see changes in some of these local ordinances, we know people in some of these places and we can talk to them and, and we're all somewhat on the same page. Right. Because we've talked about this at that conference and we'll probably be going back to the next one when they have another one. So it's very interesting. That's
Speaker 1 00:13:45 Awesome. I love it when people can come together and come up with solutions that benefit everybody and turtles and not just like, they're opposed and we're opposed. And, you know, not having that understanding, I think understanding is so important. And
Speaker 2 00:14:00 One of the things I wanna mention too is that, like I said, historically that 45% has been the number. And we've even labeled that as we, we often call that that's turtle glass, if you meet that 45%. So now that some of these new research has come out, we want people to be aware that this is ongoing and it, you know, it may change in their jurisdiction. So it's very important for our customers to check with their local municipalities and find out what they're enforcing, if they're enforcing this 30% or the 45% so that when they order windows and doors, that they're getting the right product for that location.
Speaker 1 00:14:33 And we'll of course have all of that information at the ready. So if someone's not sure, especially as they're rebuilding, I know you mentioned Fort Myers, obviously they are still rebuilding after Hurricane Ian last year. And so they're not wanting to delay these kinds of decisions because they're gonna be reconstructing and they wanna do it appropriately. So yeah, just stay in touch, reach out, ask us, and we're always happy to help. Thank you, Lynn. This has been a great conversation. Thanks for having me. I appreciate your time. Have a good day. P G T I University is the customer education team for an entire family of brands. We began with the original Easy Breeze, porch enclosure line then became P G T, America's leading brand of impact resistant windows and doors. We then added C G I C G I C window, Western Window Systems, new South Windows, echo windows, and doors and land, windows and doors. And our latest acquisition, Martin Garage doors. We create products built to withstand major storms, keeping people safe, secure, and prepared. Our exceptional brands give you the protection you need without compromising design or functionality. P G T I University is here to educate you, our listener, so that you can be a more informed consumer of window and door products.
