Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome to the Clear Impact Podcast brought to you by Mitre Brands University. Thanks for joining us today. My name is Sheri Conner and I am your host,
[00:00:19] Speaker A: well meaning folks from the insurance industry as an example, doing what they think is the right thing. But they don't have the background of the window door industry. So we're bringing that to them and cooperatively we can develop something that makes sense for all the players. Again, our interest is not just to sell windows and doors, but we have to create doors and windows that help create a safe environment.
[00:00:43] Speaker B: Good afternoon. We are here on the Clear Impact Podcast and today we are speaking with Steve Straughn. Welcome.
[00:00:51] Speaker A: Good afternoon. Thanks for inviting me.
[00:00:53] Speaker B: And so, Steve, we are going to be talking a little bit about a really fun thing to say and that's the WUE code. But before we start talking about all of that, tell us a little bit about you, your background and your connections with Mitre Brands.
[00:01:07] Speaker A: Sure. Thanks again. I've been in the industry for, oh gosh, over 35 years. The bulk of it has been in the code and regulatory end of the business. Started in the manufacturing part and moved into codes and regulatory. And Wildland Urban Interface Code has been around for a lot of years and I've been engaged in that almost since the beginning. It's 23 years, I think was when the first Wildland Urban Interface Code was published. And so we've been engaged in that for that entire time. Really.
[00:01:36] Speaker B: Wow. And your connection to Mitre Brands?
[00:01:39] Speaker A: With Mitre brands. After I retired from my full time job in the penetration industry, I was approached by folks at Mitre to help them out with some code. And so I consult with them primarily on the west coast code issues, code, regulatory issues, anything that happens here.
[00:01:54] Speaker B: Yes. And so for those that might not be familiar with this, what is the Wildland Urban Interface Code?
[00:02:03] Speaker A: Do the dry part of this International Wildland Urban Interface Code defines as geographical area where structures and other human development meets or intermingles with wildland or vegetative fuels.
So basically it's really where we're moving out of the traditional block cities into the forested or rangeland areas, develop structures, housing other structures in there. That's a wildland urban interface. We're basically mingling our buildings with what's traditional, traditionally been a forested area.
[00:02:33] Speaker B: Okay.
And why is that important to window and door dealers and distributors and building professionals.
[00:02:40] Speaker A: So as you know, codes are really designed to mitigate risks to life. In this case, we're expanding that to life and property. Any of those risks that Extend beyond the property structures, including some of the big areas, Such as the burned areas in Los Angeles a couple of years ago. That was a wildland urban interface area. The fires traveled as they will with structures close to one another and the wind and everything, it creates a significant risk to life and property.
So why should the window and door professionals be paying attention to it? Well, windows and doors really provide an opening into the structure for daylighting and ventilation. And at the same time, they can also be an invitation to unwanted intrusion by flame and embers. So our products play an important role in mitigating this risk, providing a barrier to these intrusions. So the long story short of the door and window manufacturers design and build products that comply with the basic provisions of the code in those identified oil and urban interface areas. Okay, well, we can say this. The term identified well in urban interface areas, the key is really knowing where these areas are. As manufacturer we manufacture products, we don't always know where they're going to go. So we have to know where the products are going to go so that they can be designed and specified as code compliant. So building officials, fire officials, do publish online maps of these areas, and they're really quite precise down to individual property addresses. So you can know if you're building new or if you're doing any remodeling to know whether you're in that wildland urban interface area. You can pin this thing down to a very specific property address.
[00:04:21] Speaker B: Oh, nice.
[00:04:22] Speaker A: The maps are out there. California does probably the best job of providing maps, but all states have done a very good job of mapping those areas.
[00:04:30] Speaker B: And so this is mostly in response to wildfire hazards, is that my understanding?
[00:04:36] Speaker A: It really is. In most of those cases, they're identifying the risk areas, Whether it's an urban area, unincorporated area, Whether you're in a category 1, 2, 3 area where the risk is significantly lesser or more than in some of those classes. So, well, for example, if we think about just to that point, wildlife urban interface Chapter 5 covers special building construction regulations, and it frankly specifies building material requirements that provide protection from the various levels of wildfire hazards. That said, the envelope of the building has a lot of different elements from the siding, the roofing, the windows and doors, that sort of thing. So all of those have special requirements or material requirements. Easy enough for us in the window and door industry is that they've basically taken each of those three ignition resistant construction classes and lumped them all into one requirement for windows and glazed doors, essentially requiring the multi pane glazing or Essentially requiring multi pane pane glazing, a tempered pane, or have a fire protection rating of not less than 20 minutes. So frankly, in most cases this is compliance is by use of the required glazing option. In other words, to meet the energy codes, generally we're using multi pane glazing anyhow. So if you use multi pane glazing and one layer of that is tempered pain, you've met the requirements in virtually all cases.
[00:06:03] Speaker B: Okay, well that's at least they're making that part simple.
[00:06:07] Speaker A: It has been. And that was something that very early on, going back to when we developed the California fire code back in about 2006 or seven. That was one of the cases that we talked about quite a bit. And adding a tempered layer was key to all that, based on some of the testing that we had done with UC Berkeley and actually burning windows and trying to figure out what was going to hold up the best in wildfire cases. So adding the tempered layer in there has been in the California code at least since 2008 edition. There was no orientation whether it was the outboard pane or the inboard pane. It would just use a layer of tempered glass. We've since found that actually the better compliance is by using the tempered pane as the inboard light. Okay, get a little bit better protection. But you know, it's all based on testing and experience. And again, in this case, chapter 5 doesn't specify much more than either a multi pane glazing or a 20 minute fire protection rating test.
[00:07:05] Speaker B: Yeah, this is new to me. What is the 20 minute rating? Is that how long a window or a door can withstand being around flames before it gives out?
[00:07:16] Speaker A: That's exactly it. There's a couple of different tests. So if we take it a step back, in that California code that I referenced, there's also a state fire marshal test, SFM 12 7A2, which is for Windows and doors. And that's an eight minute test. Basically, you're exposing the window or door to a direct flame test.
Direct flame meaning a fire right at the window or door meant to replicate a shrubbery on fire next to the house. It's not a very intense flame, but it's enough to create the heat that will break the glass. The glass is the weak link in all of these cases, not the frame. It's the glass that's the weak link. So with that, the fire protection rating is a test by National Fire Protection association or Underwriters Laboratory. Both have a similar test doing the same Sort of exposure of that window for not less than 20 minutes, which is a fairly intense test.
[00:08:12] Speaker B: Right. Because that's how long a wildfire takes to pass through an area. Is that the thinking?
[00:08:18] Speaker A: Honestly, not sure where that came from. In some of the studies that we've seen, I actually have some video of wildfire, some of the testing that had gone on just to see how quickly it will pass through. And generally speaking, that wildfire will pass through in about three to four minutes time.
Where you get into these eight minute or 20 minute tests is because we don't always create enough of a defensible space around our buildings to pour sparks and embers, or just the direct radiant heat will ignite things that are stacked along the house. And not necessarily just stacked along the house, but the siding, for example, or decking and that sort of thing.
[00:08:55] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:08:56] Speaker A: So they added on a little bit of extra time in case there are things such as embers left on a deck or in a pocket around a door or anywhere where they can grow and a little bit of wind blowing on a hot ember creased fire.
[00:09:09] Speaker B: Okay, yeah. Because it's not like you necessarily get a lot of time. I mean, you really do have to have the building as well protected as possible.
I mean.
[00:09:20] Speaker A: Well, to your point there, as a Florida person, you know that when things come, you have a little bit of time to prepare for hurricane testing samples. In the cases of fire, these things can blow up really, really fast. I've had friends that have lost homes in most cases. I'm not sure how the heck they got out of the area quick enough.
Fires driven by winds that are in excess of 50 miles an hour can move through really, really fast that you don't have time generally to do much to pre.
You know, it's all of this ahead of time preparation. Creating the defensible space is probably the biggest ahead of time preparation you can do.
[00:09:55] Speaker B: Sure, yeah. The passive protection we talk about as well with hurricane impact, you know, glass and windows and doors and such. Well, thank you. That sheds a lot of light for me and I'm sure for some of our listeners as well. So what would you say are some of the biggest misconceptions that you see around the WUE code requirements today?
[00:10:14] Speaker A: Well, as with most codes, once they're written, it's not. Once written and done sort of thing, the codes are under continual modification amendments. As we get smarter, we make amendments to the code and so on periodic frequency, Generally every three years, the code is updated. So as a minimum. So the misconception is that this is the best you can do. But the reality is the code is intended to establish a minimum regulation for safeguarding life and property. And that said, the adopting jurisdictions have the right to establish more restrictive regulations and they do. Well, a good example and again in the west, San Diego county in their unincorporated areas had adopted requirement that you not use just one pane of tempered, but in all of the windows use two panes of tempered glass.
And that's not terribly restrictive. We use dual pane tempered in many cases for hazardous areas in a building where a slip or a fall may require safety glazing. So again, it's not over the top regulation.
But this was around actually San Diego county actually banned the use of vinyl windows as early as 2001 because it was believed they would either melt or burn, allowing coarse fire to enter the building.
So that was part of the reason for the testing in the early 2000s to determine really what happened in these areas. And certainly that was dispelled. It wasn't a framing material issue, it was really more of a glass issue.
[00:11:41] Speaker B: Right.
[00:11:41] Speaker A: So same thing we've seen more recently here. Earlier this year, Colorado county band all windows and doors with a polymer based frame material. So you think about polymer base, it could be a fiberglass, it could be a vinyl, it could be a wood framed material with certain coatings on it or some of the components in that window or door. So this is an over the top regulation that is based on nothing more than misinformation and perhaps fear.
[00:12:09] Speaker B: And so that's one of the reasons that we're involved is to make sure that they're knowing what they're talking about before they just hand out rules and add on to the regulations.
[00:12:18] Speaker A: Well, that's exactly it. A number of years ago we had a person from California state fire marshal's office speak to a fenestration glazing industry alliance meeting. And unfortunately this official was badly misinformed as she was talking about vinyl windows and what a hazard they are. And of course you're talking to a room full of manufacturers who many of them use vinyl material as their framing. We're like wait a minute, are you doing to us?
[00:12:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:46] Speaker A: So it was an educational thing. And frankly this was sort of the entry into us becoming more and more involved with these regulators. Whether it's the insurance industry or the co development folks, we have to be involved in all of that. So certainly they understand fire and risk generally better than we do as manufacturers. You tell us what the requirements are and we'll build to that. But don't be throwing us under the bus without any information.
[00:13:13] Speaker B: Right? Yeah, no, that would be silly because vinyl is one of the most affordable common materials used in window manufacturing. Not just Miter brands, but a lot of brands.
[00:13:23] Speaker A: Sure, sure. Well, and the other part of that is it's also a material that's self extinguishing. In other words, you take away the heat, the fire goes out.
[00:13:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:30] Speaker A: So there are some materials out there that will continue to burn long after the direct heat or the direct flame has gone away. They may continue to burn. Vinyl won't. Of course, vinyl has some of the other issues that high heat will cause distortion. But you know, again, we're talk about what we believe to be a minimal exposure, and minimal being that we know the fire will pass in due time. We just have to create enough of a defensible space and a material that will withstand that direct flame or radiant heat for that period of time.
[00:14:05] Speaker B: Right. So the codes. So they don't necessarily prescribe what the materials are. Right. They just say what it has to perform to.
[00:14:15] Speaker A: That's exactly it. And this is one of the things I've been engaged in code development again for well over 25 years, has always been the case code won't tell you what materials to use. In any case, it will tell you what the performance level has to be. Okay, so this covers again, for the well and urban interface code. I'm not going to tell you how to build it. We're going to tell you what it must perform to.
[00:14:38] Speaker B: Right.
[00:14:38] Speaker A: So again, where we've learned that you have to withstand the heat load or the direct flame load, whatever material you choose to use is up to you, but you just have to do it that way. The prescribing of multiple glazing or a tempered glass may be a little bit closer to prescribing how you build it. But I don't think any of us look at that as being over the top. The code always allows you an exception. If you can prove that your method meets or exceeds the code, you can do something other than tempered glass. But right now, that's the most affordable way to create code compliance.
[00:15:15] Speaker B: We are sharing our expertise around all topics relating to the window and door industry.
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Nice. So the WUE code is international, like national. It's everywhere. But then there's the ability for the states and the counties and even the towns to layer on top of that and make it more strict. Right, sure.
[00:15:47] Speaker A: So maybe taking a step back, the Iowa International Wildland Urban Interface Code is just one of the family of codes in the International Code Council, icc. And so in that you have building code, residential code, plumbing codes, pool code, you know, all of these things. And as part of that, there's Wildland Urban Interface. So that's the base code. A lot of states will adopt that wholesale without making any real changes other than to the administrative sections. Some jurisdictions will use the base code as sort of a model for developing their own code. Florida is a good example of that. California is a good example of that. Probably the two primary examples of a jurisdiction just adopting their own code. But everybody else generally takes it and runs with it with very, very minimal changes.
As I mentioned earlier, Colorado is making some changes to theirs. Colorado is a home rural state, meaning that they don't adopt the code. They rely on the jurisdictions to adopt the code. So within that, as they look at the code, they decide what's best for their jurisdiction, the folks that live there, so they'll make the modifications.
Generally speaking, you don't go adopt anything less restrictive than the base code. But certainly more restrictive, right?
[00:17:04] Speaker B: Yeah. And that makes sense. Right, because every area is different. There's different geographical concerns and different weather events. Like you're saying California is more concerned about fire, we're more concerned about hurricanes or all of that variety comes into play.
[00:17:19] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:17:21] Speaker B: So when it comes to the testing, are there certain product features or maybe testing standards that are becoming more important as we evolve? Like even just from say five years ago, have things changed in that area?
[00:17:35] Speaker A: That's a yes and no answer.
[00:17:36] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:17:37] Speaker A: There's really nothing new out there in terms of windows and doors and the requirements for the multi pane glazing. We've cleaned the language up to be more. Have more bullet point type requirements rather than this long run on sentence that was really confusing.
That's the only real change to the code though. It didn't add any new requirements. And that's just for windows and doors. There's a lot of other components of the building that have changed, but our focus is of course windows and doors. So what's changing right now is because we see with losses, when you have essentially whole cities, the Paradise Fire as an example, a number of years ago in Northern California, or the more recent fires in Colorado and California, Louisiana area that have destroyed large sections of cities, the insurance industry gets a little anxious about that as you might Imagine, I mean, we're not only losing structure, but we're losing lives as well. So the code's focus is life safety, first and foremost. So what do we do? Insurance gets anxious again because we've got to pay out on these things.
[00:18:40] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:18:40] Speaker A: And, you know, I mean, that's their business, and we understand that. So their job is to minimize risk. So within that industry, they're doing a lot of testing of different products and different scenarios. And as the industry, our industry, started looking into all of this or being sort of on the periphery of it, we're looking like, holy smokes, what are you guys doing?
You're building a requirement for more of an urban environment rather than urban interface. Well, and urban interface area. So we effectively invite ourselves to the party and help to educate them. We have been wholly involved in that, from the international code development to the local code development.
Just trying to bring some common sense to the codes. That's been sort of the way it happened in all code development.
Well, meaning folks from the insurance industry as an example, doing what they think is the right thing. But they don't have the background of the window door industry. So we're bringing that to them and cooperatively we can develop something that makes sense for all the players. Again, our interest is not just to sell windows and doors. We have to create doors and windows that help create a safe environment.
[00:19:53] Speaker B: Yeah, no, that's excellent. I love that our organization takes such a proactive approach on that and that we're involved in investing that time and that expertise into those conversations. And I'm sure we do a fair amount of our own testing to make sure that we're compliant with all of those different things as well. I know we do for impact test. I'm sure there's fire tests that are being done with the products that are sold out west just to make sure that we are compliant.
[00:20:21] Speaker A: Exactly. And this is sort of an ongoing issue as an industry. I think there's a responsibility looking ahead. Let's be fair about it. We do have to look ahead because, you know, some of these things are going to be coming at us. And you want to be a leader in developing not only the test standards, but the code language that supports the test standards. Being that proactive, being involved with the folks that are developing the standards, involved with the folks that are developing the code, based on our own experience in testing doors and windows, to try to determine what method works best is really key. And Mitre Brandt is certainly engaged in that today.
Certain that other window companies are doing the Same thing. Nobody wants to be left behind in all of this. But you know, I'd prefer to play offense rather than defense.
[00:21:06] Speaker B: Sure. And you know, testing and developing new products takes a long time. Like there is a lot of regulations that have to be gone through engineering. There's a lot that goes into new product. It's a very long process. You can't just say here's a new regulation and now you have to meet it and you're starting at zero. Like you can't do that.
[00:21:26] Speaker A: I completely agree. This is one of the things that I've cautioned the folks from Underwriters Laboratory and from the IBHS International Insurance Institute for Business and Home Safety, which is a big testing lab of the car crash Test labs are out there. The Institute for Business and Home Safety does a lot of testing on building and structures for the insurance industry.
So they are out there doing all of this. My continual caution to them is that you don't want to rush into this and create regulation that doesn't have the background. It takes years. My caution is certainly we would all like to have something ready to go to market tomorrow. But in terms of getting a standard written that is portable and then that adopted into the code, you may be unfortunately as much as two code cycles away which could put you into the 2033 code. That's far longer than anybody really wants. But at the same time, we have to be realistic about it in that these things don't happen overnight. That technology takes time to develop, develop to create a product that is not only reliable, it will do what it says, in other words, but is economically feasible to produce.
[00:22:35] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:22:35] Speaker A: The customers care about that. Hell yes, they do.
They care about it because they want the products to last and they want the products that are affordable. Sure, there's been fire resistant windows around for many, many years and they have their place in certain constructions, but those are quite expensive. You're talking about metal frames, typically a steel or bronze frame and a single layer of general a ceramic or pyrolytic glass that will withstand direct heat for 45 minutes or longer. That's not an affordable product for most any residential structure.
[00:23:10] Speaker B: Yeah, so that's like for bomb shelters and things like. Where would you use a glass like that?
[00:23:14] Speaker A: In some cases, an urban setting, a downtown setting where you're remodeling buildings that are right next to the next building and you're using that remodel as residential. I can tell you a case in San Francisco that I worked on a number of years ago that those fire Resistant windows of that same sort of construction were about a story or so above the adjoining building. So if that adjoining building were on fire, you want the windows that are out overlooking the roof of that building to be fire resistant.
[00:23:41] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:23:42] Speaker A: There is a downside to that, however, in that particular window.
And the reason I was there was because there was a tremendous amount of condensation on those windows because of where they were in kitchens and bathrooms. But this is a case where life safety supersedes the energy.
So you couldn't put an insulating glass unit in that particular wall. So certainly specialized construction to the degree that you're protecting buildings that are not only adjacent, but adjoining one another.
[00:24:10] Speaker B: Right. I guess that makes sense. Okay, well, I'm learning so much today. So here's another question. What trends or upcoming developments are you watching most closely right now?
[00:24:20] Speaker A: Well, again, I think that as we get the pressure from the code developers from the insurance industry, they're looking more to going beyond what's been in the code for a long time and just using a layer of tempered glass. So we're looking at what can we do to enhance our glazing choices? What can we do to enhance our frame material choices? Because the code is effectively in chapter four of the well end urban interface Code requiring defensible spaces, we're looking at maybe a direct flame fire test is not the right test, but maybe a radiant heat test is the right test. That's going to be a tough one because, you know, people want, oh no, no, no, we've got flames against us. Not just a radiant heat. Well, okay, so in any case, we're trying to develop something that is sort of universal. I think a patio door, for example, because there's usually not a plant right underneath of it. Maybe that's a radiant peak test or a window. Maybe there is some shrubbery below the window. Although we caution people obviously against doing that. But human behavior is what human behavior is. And stacking rubbish bins next to the window or whatever, you're creating a bad condition. So certainly direct flame is going to be important. Our quest then is to develop a product that can withstand that heat long enough. And probably we're going to wind up going to a 10 minute test.
We have to redefine what the mode of failure is in the way that the code is written. Right now, mode of failure is a structural failure. That's a hard one to define, but we can look at it as a structural failure. Might be simply a crack in the glass as a structural weakness. But as long as the flame are not entering into the building. Is it really a failure? A real push is to try to define what failure is and how long will the test be. And again, we don't want to do this in a vacuum. We're working very closely with the glass suppliers, the frame material suppliers, as well as the research industry researchers together to develop testing standards.
[00:26:29] Speaker B: Right.
[00:26:29] Speaker A: And then of course, once the standards are developed than you adopted in code, it has to follow that progression. A code can't enforce something that doesn't have any guidelines to it. So you develop the standard, which is unfortunately a long process. We don't want people to run into this and well, just do this and it'll work. Well. It takes a little bit more research than that.
[00:26:49] Speaker B: Right.
[00:26:49] Speaker A: And as I pointed out earlier, we know that first Mitre is at the test lab testing different glazing options and framing options. And that takes time and frankly takes a lot of money to do that.
Well, if you're going to be in the market, it's the pay to play model, I suppose.
[00:27:04] Speaker B: Sure. Okay. So I have one last question, and that would be just what advice would you give to dealers and distributors and sales professionals who want to stay informed and better support their customers that are building and doing business in these wildlife and urban interface zones?
[00:27:22] Speaker A: As I said before, there are tools out there. And frankly, the building departments and fire officials in these wildland urban interface areas have really done a great job of informing the public. We see it in flyers that are distributed in those areas. We see it in their online resources that are available out there. And frankly they're quite accessible. They give you all of the information on creating and maintaining the defensible spaces. It's not about just creating, but you have to maintain that, keeping the shrubbery trimmed and that sort of thing. They give you advice on what sorts of ignition resistant materials may be required for the construction projects. So for that dealer, distributors, sales professionals and builders all need to do their own due diligence to be informed. It's really key to that. If you're going to be selling product into those areas, you really need to know what the requirements are, just as you would in windborne debris regions. For example, in Southeast. You know what's going to be required. And frankly, ordering product without knowing that just puts you at risk. Window manufacturer, window door manufacturer doesn't really care. They're just taking an order and hopefully it's ordered correctly to the right specifications and you can put that in the wall. Realized.
So there's no better way, really. In my view is to just be informed. The information is out there, is not hiding. You do have to extend a little bit of effort to stay informed. But once you know your area, those codes are pretty solid. They don't change often enough to throw you a curveball.
[00:28:52] Speaker B: Yeah, there's enough curveballs in business.
It's a good thing that the codes, the codes are not like that. So. Well, Steve, I think this has been a fantastic conversation. I know I learned a lot today about the Wildland Urban Interface, or WUE as we like to refer to it, which is such a fun thing to say.
And I so appreciate your generosity of time today and giving us this insight. And if people want to know more, they just need to go to their local code enforcement resources and dig there, right?
[00:29:25] Speaker A: That's exactly it. And I'll say that the unfortunate part, and I don't know what to blame this on, budget cuts, if nothing else. Sometimes these departments are a little bit difficult to get to somebody to answer the phone, but they, they will. You just have to have patience. They will answer. If you're going in for a building permit or any information, you may have to stop in at the local desk and ask them, but they'll give you the answers. I've never found any building official out there or fire official that isn't willing to give you the straight answer. And generally speaking, they're going to cite a section of the code. So that would be the thing that you need is a citation of where exactly the code is this information. So I know I'm following a code.
[00:30:06] Speaker B: Excellent. All right, well, I hope you have an amazing day. Thank you for all your work and appreciate your time.
[00:30:12] Speaker A: I appreciate the opportunity to visit with you on this.
[00:30:15] Speaker B: All right, have an amazing day, Steve. Thank you.
[00:30:17] Speaker A: Thank you. Take care. Bye.
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