Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:08] Speaker B: Welcome to the Clear Impact Podcast brought to you by Mitre Brands University. Thanks for joining us today. My name is Sheri Conner and I am your host.
So good afternoon. We are here on the Clear Impact Podcast and, and we are in a series called Windows and Doors 101. And we're just kind of doing a high level overview on some very basic topics for people who are new to the industry or for maybe homeowners that are doing some research. And today we have over the phone, Sean Martin. Welcome.
[00:00:48] Speaker A: Hey, Sheri, thanks for having me.
[00:00:50] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks for joining us. I'm sorry you're not here in person, but you're in Sacramento, I'm in Florida. This is the most efficient way we could get this done. So we want to talk a little bit about frame types and different materials. But before we tackle all of that, tell us a little bit about you.
[00:01:08] Speaker A: So I'll keep it quick and high level. I've been in the building industry about 36 years. I've spent the majority 26 years of that. Just recently had my anniversary with Miter Brands and most of that was as Milgard window and door team member. So my experience is sales and training. My current title is Training Manager Sales and I oversee the Milgard MI and Miter brand legacy product series and families for training and supporting our sales teams and helping to educate our customers.
[00:01:42] Speaker B: Excellent. So 26 years, that's amazing. Congrats.
[00:01:45] Speaker A: Thanks. Yeah, it's been a great ride, for sure.
[00:01:48] Speaker B: So when I first came in, there were a lot of questions around vinyl versus aluminum, and that's obviously kind of a Florida question. We're going to broaden our horizon a little bit and this is why you're the exact person to address this. And so we're just going to kind of run through the list of different frame options and just the pros, the cons where you might use it, why it's better or worse than something else just to help people kind of narrow the field when you're out shopping for windows and doors. So let's start with vinyl. Tell us a little bit about vinyl as far as a frame material goes.
[00:02:26] Speaker A: Yeah, vinyl has been around for quite a long time as a frame material. It's great from a standpoint of manufacturing and engineering. It adds value from insulating properties and helps us make the windows more efficient to structural components that we can build inside of the window, whether that's interior chamber walls or aluminum reinforcements that we add for security and rigidity to the frame. But it gives us a versatility where we weld that product and can combine that product to make quite a few different combinations of what we call configurations or operating components of the window to patio doors, whether swinging, sliding. There's just a lot of versatility with that product, and it's pretty popular in the industry. And then the other piece about it is colors. So, you know, it's. As a homeowner, it really comes down to what are you trying to achieve. And there's a lot of different ways you can go out a window that you're going to put in your home. But you know, what's important, and sometimes colors are important. So we have a variety of standard colors that the vinyl is all that same color throughout. We can also do, in some markets, a cap stock product where we put a black finish on the exterior or black finish on the interior and exterior. And then we also have painting capabilities where we can paint that vinyl and have a variety of standard colors that we offer. So it really helps hit the palette of what the customer's trying to do from the exterior of their home, as well as maybe the interior, and give them a lot of varieties and options. And so it's always the scary part to give them a lot of options, but we want to give them the best product with the best features and benefits that will serve their project well.
[00:04:09] Speaker B: Right. So does vinyl hold up? Because I know, like, years ago, vinyl windows would, like, crack and they wouldn't sustain. You know, they just weren't going to hold up, especially in the sunshine areas, right, where they're getting just pummeled by UV rays all day. Is that the same kind of vinyl that we have now?
[00:04:28] Speaker A: No, it's definitely changed over the years. The unique thing of Milgard and MI is we extrude our own vinyl for the most part, and we control those formulas, what go into them and how we build a better product. You know the good analogy, and I know Sherry, we like to tell stories. You know, the good analogy I tell homeowners is you think of the vinyl of old or even the vinyl that most people come in contact with today. And it's probably the most common things, like a PVC pipe, right. Something you would use inside of your home to run the water through your house. That product is designed to either be inside of the walls of your home or buried in the ground. And, you know, it's not really designed to sit in the sun. If you leave that pipe out in your yard for months and you accidentally go over one day and step on it, it will brittly crack under Your feet. Our products use impact modifiers and different components within the vinyl that help it stand up to the sun, because we know our product is going to live in that exposure every day, all day. So it is a far superior product from what it was years ago. And in the case of Milgard on the west side of the country, we offer a lifetime warranty on some of our product lines. And that lifetime is, you know, to the original homeowners. So that gives them that peace of mind that we'll take care of that product should something go wrong with it from a manufacturing defect or a product defect that isn't their fault.
[00:05:55] Speaker B: So it's not going to just, you know, look terrible after five years or anything like that?
[00:05:59] Speaker A: No, it's really designed not to chalk or fade. The paints can go through some natural weatherization that can happen with exposures over time, but we've tested them to hold up and perform well. So we feel very confident in the finishes we offer and stand behind.
[00:06:14] Speaker B: Excellent. And the same goes for the PGT vinyl. I mean, we go through rigorous testing and, you know, we're very fussy about our suppliers. So even though we're not extruding our own vinyl yet, who knows what's around the bend, Right? But we're very quality oriented around our vinyl supply. So I think that kind of covers vinyl. Let's talk about aluminum. So there's actually two different kinds of aluminum. There's like the regular aluminum, and then there's also what's known as thermally broken aluminum. So let's talk about those for a few minutes.
[00:06:48] Speaker A: So aluminum has been kind of the industry product for decades into the 50s, and it's a great product to build a window out of. It definitely has pros and cons. There is what we call standard or regular aluminum. It is a solid piece of aluminum extrusion that makes up the window and all the components within it. Then we have thermally broken. And what that is, is we take that frame, basically recreate two pieces instead of one, and then we put a polyurethane barrier in between them that helps to control the heat and cold transfer that goes through the aluminum. So the best way to describe that is if you had a standard window and you're outside and it's 20 degrees outside, you touch the inside of the window, it's going to be pretty close to that same temperature. But if you had a thermally improved window, that barrier will help to control how much of that heat or cold transfers through the frame. So the frame will be significantly warmer than the 20 degree outside component of the window. Or the same could be said on a hot day. If you're in Phoenix and it's 110, 115, the inside of the window is going to be cooler because of that thermal break. So it does allow some performance enhancements by going to a thermal break product.
[00:08:06] Speaker B: Okay. PGT offers aluminum. I know Western offers a thermally broken aluminum.
[00:08:10] Speaker A: Correct. And then Milgard in the west does offer a thermal improved. We call it our thermal broken window that can be purchased from our dealer network.
[00:08:20] Speaker B: What about mi? Does MI offer aluminum?
[00:08:23] Speaker A: MI currently is vinyl. They don't have an aluminum product today, so their main focus is the vinyl products that they make and manufacture.
[00:08:31] Speaker B: Okay, Are there advantages to aluminum?
[00:08:33] Speaker A: Yeah, aluminum is a pretty strong frame material to use, especially depending on how it's designed and its purpose. It does have some unique finishes. Bronze, clear, anodized, the silvers, we've replicated some of those with painted finishes or our capstock product in the vinyl. But in aluminum, probably the strongest thing we talk about on the west coast side of our business is it is the narrowest frame profile that you can get. So it allows for the most minimal amount of frame with the maximum amount of glass. But when you talk about Western, it's a rigid enough material that we can build some pretty exceptionally large units and do some pretty amazing things with our moving glass walls and window systems that they offer. So another unique piece is a lot of people say here it's a contemporary look. So it kind of harkens back to contemporary minimalistic style, if that's what you're going for in your home.
[00:09:27] Speaker B: Yeah. And obviously I think there's a misconception that aluminum can be stronger than vinyl.
[00:09:33] Speaker A: Yeah, there definitely is. I think it's design and the structural. Like Milgard builds larger windows in vinyl than they can in aluminum. So we just have more capability with that product and what we can do with it being the aluminum. The hesitation on the west side of the company is that we can't achieve some of the thermal requirements that are energy performance requirements with the aluminum products. So then customers have to do other things in their home to make it work. So more insulation or thicker walls. Just a variety of things that they have to do.
[00:10:06] Speaker B: Right. So even the thermally broken isn't going to be as energy efficient as vinyl in most cases.
[00:10:11] Speaker A: Yeah, that is correct.
[00:10:12] Speaker B: And depending on where you live, that may or may not matter. Like South Florida, the U factors are not even a thing here. But the SHGC ratings are a Big thing, so. And I also know, and this is from Patrick Jam, that aluminum is often a little easier to install. I don't know. I haven't installed any products.
[00:10:30] Speaker A: But yeah, that's definitely true. Practic is right in that the product is a more rigid frame, so there's less flex that can happen with the frame as you're installing it. So as you're nailing it in, you're not having to watch as closely as you're nailing it through, because that frame will stay pretty straight. With vinyl, you can get a little bit of flex. That happens. It's nothing bad about the frame. It's just part of the process. It's just a little more attention to detail on the install once it's in performs just as well, if not better, just depending on the application and the exposure and the configuration of window.
[00:11:05] Speaker B: We are sharing our expertise around all topics relating to the window and door industry. Whether you are a customer selling our products or a homeowner doing research, the Clear Impact podcast provides helpful content that makes an impact. Subscribe today wherever you listen to podcasts.
Okay, so we're not even halfway done with our list. We've got a few more frame types to talk about. Fiberglass is something that is completely new to me. Not in our Florida market, not in our PGT lines, but obviously as we've expanded our scope as Miter Brands University. Fiberglass is a thing for some of our other lines, right?
[00:11:44] Speaker A: Correct. Yeah. Predominantly the Milgard product line has a fiberglass window and door system. We call it the C650 product and series. And it is a product that has been around, honestly, as long as I've been with the company. So over 26 years, it has been around in some series or fashion.
[00:12:03] Speaker B: When I think of fiberglass, I think of like that super itchy pink stuff. That's your insulation.
[00:12:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Quite different than the insulation that you would be familiar with in your home. What we always tell people is, you know, most people come in contact with fiberglass at some point every day. If you look at, like a lot of tub surrounds that are put into a home, ladders, some ladders are actually made out of fiberglass. Tub surrounds are made out of fiberglass. At one point, even Corvettes were made out of fiberglass. You know, a boat in Florida, if you're on a boat, chances are it's fiberglass. The big deal with ours is it's proprietary process that we use. We gained licensing to use it, and it uses a series of what we call mats and rovings so it looks considerably different than fiberglass insulation. But we use that in conjunction with the resins to set the frame profiles and give us a very nice smooth look and finish as we paint that product. To use it in our C650 series, the big benefits, I always told people, if I had a 10 foot piece of a window profile, frame profile, and I put it across a chair, if I started with aluminum and I stood on it, I would probably bend that piece of aluminum and when I got off of it, it wouldn't go back. It would just stay in the position that it got bent to. If I did that same thing with a piece of vinyl, the frame would flex and when I got off it, slowly, but over time would come back to its original straight profile, but it would have a curve to it for a while. And then with fiberglass, if I stood on that, it would flex a little bit, but as soon as I stepped off, it would be perfectly straight. So one, it's a very strong product. The other nice component, fiberglass, is made up of very similar things that glass is made up of. So as you look at a window in the door frame, you know when you have different materials, you have different expansion and contraction rates. So things move at different rates, while fiberglass window moves very similar to the glass that's in it. While I say that, I just want to caution and just clarify that the amount of movement that happens in aluminum and vinyl is nothing to be concerned about. We've designed and tested everything we build.
[00:14:14] Speaker B: Right.
[00:14:14] Speaker A: And the other nice feature of fiberglass for us is as a homeowner, at least in the C6,650 series, that product can be painted by the homeowner and it does not void the warranty. So we'll paint it in a variety of colors that we offer. But if the customer wants purple windows, they could actually order those windows, paint them purple, and we would still warranty the product. We just wouldn't warranty the painted finish they put on it.
[00:14:37] Speaker B: Well, that's interesting. And it's good for thermal values.
[00:14:40] Speaker A: Does really well for thermal. We have some product up in the Pacific Northwest. That's actually where we make a part of the product line. We also manufacture it in Simi Valley, California. But yeah, have sold that product in and around the northern part of the United States and it's done well.
[00:14:58] Speaker B: So is fiberglass the same as composite or what's composite? Because that's another kind of frame type.
[00:15:04] Speaker A: Sure, fiberglass kind of fits in the composite family, but composite can be made up of many different things. There are fiberglass products, There are plastic and resin products that are put out there. The composite is kind of a catch all for everything that doesn't fit into the aluminum, the wood, or the vinyl category specifically. So fiberglass is in there. In some cases, we are put in the same bidding process as those. We always tell people you want to look at apples to apples, you know, versus apples and oranges. So you want to understand what's the pros and cons of each so you can make the best educated decision.
[00:15:42] Speaker B: Gotcha. So fiberglass is a composite, but other things can also be composite.
[00:15:47] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:15:47] Speaker B: Okay, got it. And you've already talked about how strong it is. So you can hit some the good sizes and the good design pressures and things like that.
[00:15:56] Speaker A: Yeah, it's been a good product for years and done really well. So, you know, we put it in some pretty large custom homes and some smaller commercial project, like multifamily and apartments and things like that. It does really well.
[00:16:09] Speaker B: Okay, well, I'm excited to get out to visit some of those spaces where that stuff is made, because I want to see it.
[00:16:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:16] Speaker B: Okay. So then we have the good old standard wood windows. So once upon a time, I lived in a cottage that had been relocated from the beach. It was a beach cottage, but it wasn't on the beach. And it was all this pecky cypress wood inside. And all of the windows were wooden. And this thing was built like 1950s. And there were some of those windows and everything was wood. I could not get those babies open to save my life, Especially in the summer, because everything would swell and the humidity and the heat and the moisture and I mean, I didn't really want to open them anyway. But you know, in the winter when it would cool off, I still couldn't get them open. They were just, you know, multiple layers of paint and just super, super old windows. Are wood windows still a thing?
[00:17:01] Speaker A: There are companies out there. Honestly today, under the Miter brands family, there are no true wood window products that we offer. So probably the closest thing that we have in the MI families, we offer a vinyl wrapped interior window that would have a wood vinyl wrapping on it that would give you the appearance of an oak or a different wood finish on the interior of the window and give you all the performance that you would get in a vinyl window. There are other companies out there that are truly still making a pure wood window much like the one you described, or they're making a hybrid of some kind of wood window with some type of exterior cladding on it, whether that be vinyl or aluminum or something else, those products are out there. It's not the realm that we dive into. So I don't want to say good and bad, but to your point, a true wood window, while it is very beautiful, there's a lot of maintenance that's required to keep that window functioning, unlike some of the products that we offer. So painting and stripping paint off so you don't put on so much paint that you can't open a window, you know, is definitely one of the considerations. But the nice part is if you have existing wood windows, many of our product lines are designed to fit right inside of those, so you can replace them without really damaging the exterior of your home and get a functioning high performance window inside of your old wood window frame. So there are options and ways to do that.
[00:18:25] Speaker B: Yeah, and we also have some skins, I guess is what it's called. It's a way of making aluminum look like wood. So we have options to make aluminum look like wood in the window lines. So there's like hazelnut and mahogany and walnut. There's a few different finishes. And it looks like, especially from a distance, it looks completely like wood. You don't even realize it's not until you touch it.
[00:18:48] Speaker A: Yeah. And apologize that, you know, still getting familiar with all the PGT products that are part of this acquisition. But there are products out there that do that. And that's the beauty is you can get a better performing product and still get the look and desire that you want. And if you truly want wood, there are options out there. It's just something you have to go search out.
[00:19:07] Speaker B: Yeah, those would never fly in Florida.
Based on personal experience, you don't want wood windows in Florida or anywhere with like high heat and humidity, just no bueno. So obviously every market is different, every manufacturer is different. Cost considerations. Like, is it generally speaking that vinyl is more expensive or aluminum is more expensive, or fiberglass? Like, do you know how that lands?
[00:19:33] Speaker A: It's a great question. I think it can vary by region, by market. I would say to a homeowner, you know, the. The critical thing is cost is always the highest priority. Right. So what am I going to pay for these? How do I get the best value for what I want? I think as you consider cost of your project, the critical thing to think about is what else are you trying to achieve. And the founder of Milgard said it best once. He said, if every window was free, what would be most important to you? And that just says if you take price out of the equation because price is important today, but the features and benefits and the things that you're trying to achieve are going to be the long term things that you want to look at. So what type of installation is it new construction, Is it replacement? Which frame type is going to best work for your installation that you're doing? And that's where our customers, our dealers that are out there selling our product can help you in determining the next is what features are important, Is it function? Is it color, Is it grids, Is it glass? Is it maybe the warranty and the security of peace of mind that you're looking for? And all of those things have a value and you want to assess that and make sure that you're looking for the right things when you're looking for your windows, Cost comes down to it. I can tell you from my experience, the vinyl products, While in most cases we have a good, better, best scenario that we offer, There are options and the more features you add, the more the cost will go up. But if those features are important to you, you got to weigh that out. And then aluminum comes in usually a little bit higher than that. It's part of the extrusion and the cost of the material. There aren't as many people making it anymore. So it is a little more expensive of a window to produce. And then the fiberglass or composite products are probably right up there as well. So you're going to spend a little more. But again, there's pros and cons with all of the products that we offer. We just would hope that you could work with a good authorized dealer that sells our products and we could be a part of that process with you and helping you find and determine the best product for your project.
[00:21:38] Speaker B: Yeah, there's a lot to consider for sure.
[00:21:40] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:21:41] Speaker B: Any interesting stories around frame types that you could share?
[00:21:46] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, I think there's one story that comes to mind that a gentleman this is in Santa Ynez valley in California. So if anyone's familiar with Michael Jackson, it's where his ranch was. Okay, so not quite coastal, but definitely a hot valley in the sun, the summertime. And we had a gentleman that took a product we call a replacement fin window or a Z bar window. And it's designed to go over the existing window frame in a house and sit on top of the stucco exteriors, which is a very common installation or exterior finishing in California. And he put that window in such a way that he really should use a block frame window because every time the sun would go behind the clouds, the window would start creaking because it was actually cooling off a little bit and it was walking away from the house or the exterior of the house because it wasn't installed in a way where it would stay adhered to it. So it became a leaking nightmare because he installed the wrong window type in the wrong opening.
[00:22:49] Speaker B: So it would make noise.
[00:22:50] Speaker A: Yeah, not terrible noise, but there'd be a little bit of creaking because normally it's secured and sealed against the exterior of the house. And because it's. It really had a very minimal contact point that there wasn't enough to really hold it. So, you know, and again, on 105 degree day, when the sun goes behind the cloud for a little bit, it gets cool. Right. So it would actually creak and crack a little bit.
[00:23:14] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. That would make me crazy.
Like, what is that noise?
[00:23:18] Speaker A: And it wasn't a fun conversation to tell him that he's got the wrong windows, and then he had to go chase that down with his dealer installer, you know, who put it in. So a good authorized dealer who understands your area, the challenges that are there, and really wants to work with you to find the best situation or the best product with the best frame type and installation method with the best features and options to satisfy what you're looking for is really what you want to find.
[00:23:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Because no two openings are the same. Everything's always different.
[00:23:49] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely.
[00:23:51] Speaker B: Well, Sean, I am just, as always, impressed with you and impressed with your knowledge level, and I'm so glad that you were able to take some time today to shed some light on this pivotal topic. People are trying to figure out, you know, if you're going to drop the dollar amount that a whole replacement package costs or it's part of your new construction, you want to understand what you're paying for. So I'm thinking that this is going to be a helpful episode for people.
[00:24:16] Speaker A: I'm super excited. Sheri. I think you always do a great job with podcast, and I think this is a great topic to help consumers, homeowners have a better understanding of how to approach this challenging piece of buying new windows indoors.
[00:24:29] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:24:30] Speaker A: I'm glad we can be a part of that.
[00:24:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you so much. I hope you have a beautiful day.
[00:24:35] Speaker A: Thanks, Sheri.
[00:24:35] Speaker B: All right, take care.
[00:24:36] Speaker A: Bye bye.
[00:24:38] Speaker B: The Clear Impact podcast is brought to you by Mitre Brands University. We are a part of Miter Brands, a family of leading window and door brands united by our passion for quality and relentless pursuit of 100% at Miter Brands. Our common purpose is to deliver value by manufacturing the finest products, services and customer experience every day everywhere. Our window indoor brands deliver regionalized expertise, products and services all backed by a national company. Company. Mitre Brands University is here to educate you, our listener, so that you can be a more informed consumer of window and door products.
